[LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
32 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

wayne king
I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.

As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.

Wayne King
N. Commons Road

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

samattes
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Bijoy Misra
I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Allen Vander Meulen III
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Bijoy Misra
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Bijoy Misra
Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

samattes
Bijou,
Please, please familiarize yourself with the lengthy and well publicized process that preceded Town Meeting before you write such posts as this!

This appears very disrespectful of the thousands of volunteer hours that were invested in creating an open and transparent process BEFORE we came to a final vote.  I cannot imagine you meant such disrespect, but rather you have been unaware of a that has transpired PRIOR to this past Sat meeting.

The first 2 items you present were discussed and debated for months (17?) prior to a vote last June.  Last June, we REJECTED the idea of simple repair and chose to advance the option ( and approx budget) you voted on Sat & Mon

Item 3 was not before the town
We did not develop a budget ( and tax rate increase) prior to beginning to design

But the other 2 suggestions you made to how things should have been managed were done so.

So, please review the SBC website and all documents before making accusations regarding the efforts of the SBC volunteers.

And, yes, there is “ a government side”- they are the proponents!

It is up to citizens who are the loyal opposition to respectfully question/ challenge.  It is often not easy, especially when there are strict time constraints.  But, there is the opportunity, no matter how constrained, to object.

Perhaps looking at the link Maggie provided ( Sect of State Galvin) would also help.

Respectfully,
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Bijoy Misra
Sara,
I am sorry, did not mean disrespect.
My view is that the meeting was narrow in its possibilities.
I am a minority in this view.
Let me study more.
Best regards,
Bijoy

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:07 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bijou,
Please, please familiarize yourself with the lengthy and well publicized process that preceded Town Meeting before you write such posts as this!

This appears very disrespectful of the thousands of volunteer hours that were invested in creating an open and transparent process BEFORE we came to a final vote.  I cannot imagine you meant such disrespect, but rather you have been unaware of a that has transpired PRIOR to this past Sat meeting.

The first 2 items you present were discussed and debated for months (17?) prior to a vote last June.  Last June, we REJECTED the idea of simple repair and chose to advance the option ( and approx budget) you voted on Sat & Mon

Item 3 was not before the town
We did not develop a budget ( and tax rate increase) prior to beginning to design

But the other 2 suggestions you made to how things should have been managed were done so.

So, please review the SBC website and all documents before making accusations regarding the efforts of the SBC volunteers.

And, yes, there is “ a government side”- they are the proponents!

It is up to citizens who are the loyal opposition to respectfully question/ challenge.  It is often not easy, especially when there are strict time constraints.  But, there is the opportunity, no matter how constrained, to object.

Perhaps looking at the link Maggie provided ( Sect of State Galvin) would also help.

Respectfully,
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

aspang
In reply to this post by Bijoy Misra

Dear Bijoy,


What you so concisely outlined here is precisely what questions were debated and decided over the last several years.


1.  We debated and decided a project of partial renovation and partial new construction.


2.  We debated and decided that our children and our community could not wait many more years for state aid that likely would never come (+/- 10% of applicants approved, with main criteria of overcrowding or imminent uninhabitability--neither of which we meet).


3.  We debated and considered a range of building options with costs ranging from $50 million to $110 million (roughly, from memory), with the attendant tax implications spelled out for each option.  The decision for the L3 option was made in June with full disclosure of tax implications at that time, so voters chose which tax increase they would tolerate in a cost/benefit decision.


Yes, democratic decisions **do** take time, and we took plenty of time deciding, with deliberate pace and many opportunities for community input.  But "consensus" is not unanimity.  Unanimity is unachievable.  In the end, 89% at Town Meeting and over 68% at the polls supported the outcome.  For a huge, contentious process like this, those numbers qualify as "consensus." 


Respectfully,

Andrew Pang

Brooks Hill Road

(not Andy Payne)

(not Andy Wang)

(not Andrew Prihodko)

(not any other Andy/Andrew who has posted before on this matter)



On December 5, 2018 at 3:44 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra < [hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen < [hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “ Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra < [hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes < [hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Michael
In reply to this post by Bijoy Misra
Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list
I think the rub lies in the following:

Fundamentally, there is a difference between “outreach” and “inclusion”.  Please take it from one who has been there.  When one volunteers, their experience is directly affected by those they see at the table.  It is only natural.

No offense please, and I’ve said it before.  But inviting people to come witness how much everyone has in common as they speak from a very narrow perspective is not enticing to a significant portion of the population.  

Doesn’t mean the volunteers are bad! They are hard working and generous with their time.  It just means, maybe, we would benefit from deliberately seeking out a wider chorus from the beginning.

Vin

Vincent Cannistraro







On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.



--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Louis Zipes
Are you proposing something like this, Vin?


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:49 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the rub lies in the following:

Fundamentally, there is a difference between “outreach” and “inclusion”.  Please take it from one who has been there.  When one volunteers, their experience is directly affected by those they see at the table.  It is only natural.

No offense please, and I’ve said it before.  But inviting people to come witness how much everyone has in common as they speak from a very narrow perspective is not enticing to a significant portion of the population.  

Doesn’t mean the volunteers are bad! They are hard working and generous with their time.  It just means, maybe, we would benefit from deliberately seeking out a wider chorus from the beginning.

Vin

Vincent Cannistraro







On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list
Interesting! That could well work.  I actually had another concept:

Right now, many committees are ultimately appointed by one person. One option might be to have a committee of three people select folks and be held to a “diversity standard”. We have no such standard for Lincoln. 
If I assembled all committees, there would likely be a risk that most  everyone would be a Saint Joe’s parishioner, or LYS member, so I’m no different. 

Here’s another example:  at one pint I inquired about serving on FinCom. I was told that they “were al financial types” and that “longevity was sought on the committee”. What that told me was that they valued lack of diversity and wanted to keep newcomers as few in number as possible. What if I had a friend there? Would I have been told something different?  No judgement, just pointing to something I struggle to understand. 

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Louis Zipes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Are you proposing something like this, Vin?


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:49 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the rub lies in the following:

Fundamentally, there is a difference between “outreach” and “inclusion”.  Please take it from one who has been there.  When one volunteers, their experience is directly affected by those they see at the table.  It is only natural.

No offense please, and I’ve said it before.  But inviting people to come witness how much everyone has in common as they speak from a very narrow perspective is not enticing to a significant portion of the population.  

Doesn’t mean the volunteers are bad! They are hard working and generous with their time.  It just means, maybe, we would benefit from deliberately seeking out a wider chorus from the beginning.

Vin

Vincent Cannistraro







On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

sharon antia
Whoever picked the members of the say goodby to MMHS subcommittee would not let Lincoln’s one MMSC member (me) on the subcommittee as I had already said I think we should stay in the district and therefore I could not be impartial. This, honest to goodness, was said to me by the person who spearheaded the effort to pull out. 

To Vin’s point, there may be a way other than the Lincoln Way. 

-ska
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:16 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
Interesting! That could well work.  I actually had another concept:

Right now, many committees are ultimately appointed by one person. One option might be to have a committee of three people select folks and be held to a “diversity standard”. We have no such standard for Lincoln. 
If I assembled all committees, there would likely be a risk that most  everyone would be a Saint Joe’s parishioner, or LYS member, so I’m no different. 

Here’s another example:  at one pint I inquired about serving on FinCom. I was told that they “were al financial types” and that “longevity was sought on the committee”. What that told me was that they valued lack of diversity and wanted to keep newcomers as few in number as possible. What if I had a friend there? Would I have been told something different?  No judgement, just pointing to something I struggle to understand. 

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Louis Zipes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Are you proposing something like this, Vin?


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:49 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the rub lies in the following:

Fundamentally, there is a difference between “outreach” and “inclusion”.  Please take it from one who has been there.  When one volunteers, their experience is directly affected by those they see at the table.  It is only natural.

No offense please, and I’ve said it before.  But inviting people to come witness how much everyone has in common as they speak from a very narrow perspective is not enticing to a significant portion of the population.  

Doesn’t mean the volunteers are bad! They are hard working and generous with their time.  It just means, maybe, we would benefit from deliberately seeking out a wider chorus from the beginning.

Vin

Vincent Cannistraro







On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
-ska Sent from Gmail Mobile

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list
Do you think that our pulling out of the District over $100 per household sent a message to the state that Lincoln doesn’t value education?  No wonder why they were hesitant to invite us into this latest round!

Nice going team. We really showed them. 

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 5:30 PM, sharon antia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Whoever picked the members of the say goodby to MMHS subcommittee would not let Lincoln’s one MMSC member (me) on the subcommittee as I had already said I think we should stay in the district and therefore I could not be impartial. This, honest to goodness, was said to me by the person who spearheaded the effort to pull out. 

To Vin’s point, there may be a way other than the Lincoln Way. 

-ska
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:16 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
Interesting! That could well work.  I actually had another concept:

Right now, many committees are ultimately appointed by one person. One option might be to have a committee of three people select folks and be held to a “diversity standard”. We have no such standard for Lincoln. 
If I assembled all committees, there would likely be a risk that most  everyone would be a Saint Joe’s parishioner, or LYS member, so I’m no different. 

Here’s another example:  at one pint I inquired about serving on FinCom. I was told that they “were al financial types” and that “longevity was sought on the committee”. What that told me was that they valued lack of diversity and wanted to keep newcomers as few in number as possible. What if I had a friend there? Would I have been told something different?  No judgement, just pointing to something I struggle to understand. 

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Louis Zipes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Are you proposing something like this, Vin?


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:49 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the rub lies in the following:

Fundamentally, there is a difference between “outreach” and “inclusion”.  Please take it from one who has been there.  When one volunteers, their experience is directly affected by those they see at the table.  It is only natural.

No offense please, and I’ve said it before.  But inviting people to come witness how much everyone has in common as they speak from a very narrow perspective is not enticing to a significant portion of the population.  

Doesn’t mean the volunteers are bad! They are hard working and generous with their time.  It just means, maybe, we would benefit from deliberately seeking out a wider chorus from the beginning.

Vin

Vincent Cannistraro







On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
-ska Sent from Gmail Mobile

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Diana Abrashkin
Please, Vin, (and all), change the subject line. What you're writing doesn't have much to do with Town Meeting. We need a fresh thread.
Best, Diana

Diana Abrashkin, Registered Architect
www.CuracaoWithDiana.com
www.ADCarchitecture.com
US telephone (781) 259-0203


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:49 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you think that our pulling out of the District over $100 per household sent a message to the state that Lincoln doesn’t value education?  No wonder why they were hesitant to invite us into this latest round!

Nice going team. We really showed them. 

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 5:30 PM, sharon antia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Whoever picked the members of the say goodby to MMHS subcommittee would not let Lincoln’s one MMSC member (me) on the subcommittee as I had already said I think we should stay in the district and therefore I could not be impartial. This, honest to goodness, was said to me by the person who spearheaded the effort to pull out. 

To Vin’s point, there may be a way other than the Lincoln Way. 

-ska
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:16 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
Interesting! That could well work.  I actually had another concept:

Right now, many committees are ultimately appointed by one person. One option might be to have a committee of three people select folks and be held to a “diversity standard”. We have no such standard for Lincoln. 
If I assembled all committees, there would likely be a risk that most  everyone would be a Saint Joe’s parishioner, or LYS member, so I’m no different. 

Here’s another example:  at one pint I inquired about serving on FinCom. I was told that they “were al financial types” and that “longevity was sought on the committee”. What that told me was that they valued lack of diversity and wanted to keep newcomers as few in number as possible. What if I had a friend there? Would I have been told something different?  No judgement, just pointing to something I struggle to understand. 

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Louis Zipes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Are you proposing something like this, Vin?


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:49 PM Vincent Cannistraro via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the rub lies in the following:

Fundamentally, there is a difference between “outreach” and “inclusion”.  Please take it from one who has been there.  When one volunteers, their experience is directly affected by those they see at the table.  It is only natural.

No offense please, and I’ve said it before.  But inviting people to come witness how much everyone has in common as they speak from a very narrow perspective is not enticing to a significant portion of the population.  

Doesn’t mean the volunteers are bad! They are hard working and generous with their time.  It just means, maybe, we would benefit from deliberately seeking out a wider chorus from the beginning.

Vin

Vincent Cannistraro







On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

Seconding what both Sarah and Andy have stated ---

Your comments negate the lengthy open process by which the SBC guided this
process seeking the input of every Lincoln resident. The process was open
and participatory and all citizens of the community were welcome to offer
expertise, input and critique. The purpose of Saturday’s ‘Special Town
Meeting’ was to approve – or not – the Schematic Design and Costing of
Scheme L3 – one of several schemes discussed and voted on in June’s Town
Meeting.

The SBC guided and presented this project on the community’s behalf – and I
find it hard-pressed to believe (or to think this is still a subject of
discussion) that anyone’s inclination to speak or to vote ‘no’ (including
your own) was hindered by any meeting format or presentation. It would be
more helpful – and healthy – for commentary to shift towards helping this
community realize a successful school building that everyone is proud of
while also working on other issues confronting the town – mitigating
property tax increases where warranted, seeking to maintain what ‘diversity’
exists in town and responsibly allowing for additional commercial
development

-Michael Dembowski




--
Sent from: http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
-ska Sent from Gmail Mobile
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

samattes
In reply to this post by Bijoy Misra
The meeting has only ONE item to discuss and debate.
Much of the debate and discussion, and lots of decisions happened PRIOR to the Spc Town Meeting.
Perhaps that was a course that disappointed some, but it was very well advertised that the June meeting would pick a final price point and design concept.
That meeting was where “the dye was cast.”
And, there were many many meeting leading up to it, including many workshops where multiplied design options were on the table.
Those that were active participant sin the highly democratic process shaped what we presented in June. 

As I said before, what was NOT debated and decided was a budget before we began to designed.
We designed and then asked what each option would cost.
This was the part of the process that left some puzzled as that is not how most of us function in our own lives, with our household budgets.
But, that is what we collectively did.

And the dishes and prices tags that emerged later were the ones on the table in June.

The recent SPc. Town Meeting was narrow, by design.




On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:13 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara,
I am sorry, did not mean disrespect.
My view is that the meeting was narrow in its possibilities.
I am a minority in this view.
Let me study more.
Best regards,
Bijoy

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:07 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bijou,
Please, please familiarize yourself with the lengthy and well publicized process that preceded Town Meeting before you write such posts as this!

This appears very disrespectful of the thousands of volunteer hours that were invested in creating an open and transparent process BEFORE we came to a final vote.  I cannot imagine you meant such disrespect, but rather you have been unaware of a that has transpired PRIOR to this past Sat meeting.

The first 2 items you present were discussed and debated for months (17?) prior to a vote last June.  Last June, we REJECTED the idea of simple repair and chose to advance the option ( and approx budget) you voted on Sat & Mon

Item 3 was not before the town
We did not develop a budget ( and tax rate increase) prior to beginning to design

But the other 2 suggestions you made to how things should have been managed were done so.

So, please review the SBC website and all documents before making accusations regarding the efforts of the SBC volunteers.

And, yes, there is “ a government side”- they are the proponents!

It is up to citizens who are the loyal opposition to respectfully question/ challenge.  It is often not easy, especially when there are strict time constraints.  But, there is the opportunity, no matter how constrained, to object.

Perhaps looking at the link Maggie provided ( Sect of State Galvin) would also help.

Respectfully,
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.



--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list
So, are you saying that, if “No” were an option presented with equal attention and respect from the committee at the other options, and of folks thinking “No” felt safe and welcome to attend, that might have been a different outcome?

Vin

Sent from my iPhone, so please excuse any spelling, or syntax errors. 

On Dec 5, 2018, at 6:39 PM, Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:

The meeting has only ONE item to discuss and debate.
Much of the debate and discussion, and lots of decisions happened PRIOR to the Spc Town Meeting.
Perhaps that was a course that disappointed some, but it was very well advertised that the June meeting would pick a final price point and design concept.
That meeting was where “the dye was cast.”
And, there were many many meeting leading up to it, including many workshops where multiplied design options were on the table.
Those that were active participant sin the highly democratic process shaped what we presented in June. 

As I said before, what was NOT debated and decided was a budget before we began to designed.
We designed and then asked what each option would cost.
This was the part of the process that left some puzzled as that is not how most of us function in our own lives, with our household budgets.
But, that is what we collectively did.

And the dishes and prices tags that emerged later were the ones on the table in June.

The recent SPc. Town Meeting was narrow, by design.




On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:13 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara,
I am sorry, did not mean disrespect.
My view is that the meeting was narrow in its possibilities.
I am a minority in this view.
Let me study more.
Best regards,
Bijoy

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:07 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bijou,
Please, please familiarize yourself with the lengthy and well publicized process that preceded Town Meeting before you write such posts as this!

This appears very disrespectful of the thousands of volunteer hours that were invested in creating an open and transparent process BEFORE we came to a final vote.  I cannot imagine you meant such disrespect, but rather you have been unaware of a that has transpired PRIOR to this past Sat meeting.

The first 2 items you present were discussed and debated for months (17?) prior to a vote last June.  Last June, we REJECTED the idea of simple repair and chose to advance the option ( and approx budget) you voted on Sat & Mon

Item 3 was not before the town
We did not develop a budget ( and tax rate increase) prior to beginning to design

But the other 2 suggestions you made to how things should have been managed were done so.

So, please review the SBC website and all documents before making accusations regarding the efforts of the SBC volunteers.

And, yes, there is “ a government side”- they are the proponents!

It is up to citizens who are the loyal opposition to respectfully question/ challenge.  It is often not easy, especially when there are strict time constraints.  But, there is the opportunity, no matter how constrained, to object.

Perhaps looking at the link Maggie provided ( Sect of State Galvin) would also help.

Respectfully,
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Bijoy Misra
In reply to this post by samattes
Sara,
Please forgive me to say that It was not a puzzle, it was a different style of democracy
where the outcome was already preset apparently through the "previous" meeting decisions.
What I and a few others erroneously thought that the decision had some latitude since it
could cause suffering to a sector of the town.  Some people begged reconsideration.
We can't help in debating the issue.  It is done.
Best regards,
Bijoy Misra

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:39 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The meeting has only ONE item to discuss and debate.
Much of the debate and discussion, and lots of decisions happened PRIOR to the Spc Town Meeting.
Perhaps that was a course that disappointed some, but it was very well advertised that the June meeting would pick a final price point and design concept.
That meeting was where “the dye was cast.”
And, there were many many meeting leading up to it, including many workshops where multiplied design options were on the table.
Those that were active participant sin the highly democratic process shaped what we presented in June. 

As I said before, what was NOT debated and decided was a budget before we began to designed.
We designed and then asked what each option would cost.
This was the part of the process that left some puzzled as that is not how most of us function in our own lives, with our household budgets.
But, that is what we collectively did.

And the dishes and prices tags that emerged later were the ones on the table in June.

The recent SPc. Town Meeting was narrow, by design.




On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:13 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara,
I am sorry, did not mean disrespect.
My view is that the meeting was narrow in its possibilities.
I am a minority in this view.
Let me study more.
Best regards,
Bijoy

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:07 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bijou,
Please, please familiarize yourself with the lengthy and well publicized process that preceded Town Meeting before you write such posts as this!

This appears very disrespectful of the thousands of volunteer hours that were invested in creating an open and transparent process BEFORE we came to a final vote.  I cannot imagine you meant such disrespect, but rather you have been unaware of a that has transpired PRIOR to this past Sat meeting.

The first 2 items you present were discussed and debated for months (17?) prior to a vote last June.  Last June, we REJECTED the idea of simple repair and chose to advance the option ( and approx budget) you voted on Sat & Mon

Item 3 was not before the town
We did not develop a budget ( and tax rate increase) prior to beginning to design

But the other 2 suggestions you made to how things should have been managed were done so.

So, please review the SBC website and all documents before making accusations regarding the efforts of the SBC volunteers.

And, yes, there is “ a government side”- they are the proponents!

It is up to citizens who are the loyal opposition to respectfully question/ challenge.  It is often not easy, especially when there are strict time constraints.  But, there is the opportunity, no matter how constrained, to object.

Perhaps looking at the link Maggie provided ( Sect of State Galvin) would also help.

Respectfully,
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.



--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list
Hello Bijoy,

Our input on the "budget" was the June meeting.  The SBC instructed us to vote in support of the budget and building shape we supported. The 2016 census data was out ahead of the June meeting.  June is when we should have been discussing cost if we were concerned.  I remember you had a chance to speak at the microphone in June, I do not remember what you said.   The SBC clearly listened to citizens concerns over cost and affordability, tasking a small group to evaluate all tax relief programs.  Much education concerning tax relief programs has come out in recent months.  

-Heather
 
Heather  Ring


On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 8:12 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:


Sara,
Please forgive me to say that It was not a puzzle, it was a different style of democracy
where the outcome was already preset apparently through the "previous" meeting decisions.
What I and a few others erroneously thought that the decision had some latitude since it
could cause suffering to a sector of the town.  Some people begged reconsideration.
We can't help in debating the issue.  It is done.
Best regards,
Bijoy Misra

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:39 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The meeting has only ONE item to discuss and debate.
Much of the debate and discussion, and lots of decisions happened PRIOR to the Spc Town Meeting.
Perhaps that was a course that disappointed some, but it was very well advertised that the June meeting would pick a final price point and design concept.
That meeting was where “the dye was cast.”
And, there were many many meeting leading up to it, including many workshops where multiplied design options were on the table.
Those that were active participant sin the highly democratic process shaped what we presented in June. 

As I said before, what was NOT debated and decided was a budget before we began to designed.
We designed and then asked what each option would cost.
This was the part of the process that left some puzzled as that is not how most of us function in our own lives, with our household budgets.
But, that is what we collectively did.

And the dishes and prices tags that emerged later were the ones on the table in June.

The recent SPc. Town Meeting was narrow, by design.




On Dec 5, 2018, at 4:13 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara,
I am sorry, did not mean disrespect.
My view is that the meeting was narrow in its possibilities.
I am a minority in this view.
Let me study more.
Best regards,
Bijoy

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:07 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bijou,
Please, please familiarize yourself with the lengthy and well publicized process that preceded Town Meeting before you write such posts as this!

This appears very disrespectful of the thousands of volunteer hours that were invested in creating an open and transparent process BEFORE we came to a final vote.  I cannot imagine you meant such disrespect, but rather you have been unaware of a that has transpired PRIOR to this past Sat meeting.

The first 2 items you present were discussed and debated for months (17?) prior to a vote last June.  Last June, we REJECTED the idea of simple repair and chose to advance the option ( and approx budget) you voted on Sat & Mon

Item 3 was not before the town
We did not develop a budget ( and tax rate increase) prior to beginning to design

But the other 2 suggestions you made to how things should have been managed were done so.

So, please review the SBC website and all documents before making accusations regarding the efforts of the SBC volunteers.

And, yes, there is “ a government side”- they are the proponents!

It is up to citizens who are the loyal opposition to respectfully question/ challenge.  It is often not easy, especially when there are strict time constraints.  But, there is the opportunity, no matter how constrained, to object.

Perhaps looking at the link Maggie provided ( Sect of State Galvin) would also help.

Respectfully,
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Debatable policy questions could be the following in the current context:

1.  Our children are suffering through improper facilities.  Should we build a new school or repair the old school?

2.  If we build a new school, should we wait for the State funding or proceed on our own?

3.  If we proceed on our own, what would be a sustainable tax increase: (a) 5% to 10%, (b) 10% to 20%

Democratic decisions do take time to achieve.  There is more energy when there is consensus.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:
People who come with open mind, quickly realize
that there is a Govt side and an opposition side.

The concept of town meeting (I grew up with these) is
that all citizens participate in the decision making.
A proposal is presented by a citizens' group
and is debated.  A Town meeting is not a Q&A session.
Each becomes an individual citizen in a Town meeting.
All proposals are "respectfully submitted" for debate.
There is only one floor.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Pastor Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Re: “Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.”

Actually, in EVERY Lincoln Town Meeting I’ve been to over the past 10 years, I’ve encountered folks who are there because they haven’t made up their minds, and want to hear what others have to say before they do.

-Allen Vander Meulen

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Bijoy Misra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Town meeting was the forum when message spread through the word of mouth.
Hence it had to be debated for veracity and understanding the pros and cons.
Presently we have full canvassing through signs, media and prior endorsements.
Nobody is coming to the meeting with an open mind.
When we say that we have a "Mangement endorsement", it only begs for a vote and not discussion.
So was my observation from the proceedings of last week. 
What I heard was not a "proposal" for debate, but a "recommendation" for approval.
The process needs to be more objective to honor the sanctity of people's voice.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:16 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
The point of Town Meeting is to provide the opportunity to “stand and be counted.”
You can elect to show up only for the vote, and then leave.
But, in Open Town Meeting, all is open, including your vote.
The ballot box offers you a secret ballot on a candidate, ballot measures, and some funding mechanisms.
This is just the way it works, as determined by town and state charter

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2018, at 11:04 AM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the sentiment Keith expresses. There is no test for how informed or ill-informed a voter is in order to vote and neither should there be. Nobody can be the judge of that. We are all painfully aware of how in the past this country has used various tests to disenfranchise people. I respect the right of people to gather and debate each and every issue as much as they like. The TM is a good forum for that. But there should be no requirement to listen to anybody if I choose not to. My decision to participate or not participate in a public gathering should not affect my right to vote. Also, I submit people should be able to cast their vote in private. Respectfully, it is nobody's business how I, or anyone, feel about a particular issue and I should not be compelled to share my opinion publicly if I choose not to. If you want to put a sign in your front yard that you support issue X or candidate X, or wear a t-shirt stating the same, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. On the other hand, if you wish to keep your views private and express them only through your ballot, that is also your right.
>
> As I stated when I started this thread, I have only been to two TMs to date so I admittedly do not have the experience of others here, but in both cases, I would not say that those holding the minority view were treated in a particularly welcoming manner.
>
> Wayne King
> N. Commons Road
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.


--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email]
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.




--
The LincolnTalk mailing list.
To post, send mail to [hidden email].
Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.
Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.

12