[LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

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[LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

wayne king
As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions. 

This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00. 

Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact. 

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Wayne King



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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Richard Panetta
Wayne,

 We recently had a Special Town Meeting on October 20th. There were 2 votes and the meeting was relatively short, ended by 10:30. Only 193 people showed up for that one.  

People find time to participate in democracy. We should not complain because it is inconvenient. 

If it is on two days then what if someone cannot vote on the second day? And the ballots cannot be printed ahead of time because of motions and amendments that can occur at TM. So absentee ballots are out. 

We could use Lexington's model and have representatives for the town's people instead so you do not have to be there. But then your opinion might not even matter.  

- Rich 

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:04 PM wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions. 

This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00. 

Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact. 

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Wayne King


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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

John Koenig
In reply to this post by wayne king
Whenever anyone says “I don’t have the time for X” what they mean is “X is not a priority for me.”  

John L. Koenig
*****

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions.
>
> This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00.
>
> Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact.
>
> The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.
>
> Wayne King
>
>
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list
Respectfully I think that remark below may not take into account some of our 21st century realities...as an example,  I’m a full-time working parent who worked all week, we have 2 kids, and my husband happened to be on call working in a hospital on Saturday from 6 am and on.  Which left me to manage the kids and their sat am activities and get to town meeting.  The poor dog was virtually ignored.

Yes, I made time for town meeting Saturday,  and not just to vote but also to listen and learn, but me attending for 5 hours caused stress on my family, managing life and also cost extra money for babysitting and Uber’s.  Let’s be careful not to judge too harshly people who have work, family, and religious commitments on town meeting days, and may find attending for many hours challenging or difficult to manage.

Sara Brown

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:23 PM, John Koenig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Whenever anyone says “I don’t have the time for X” what they mean is “X is not a priority for me.”  
>
> John L. Koenig
> *****
>
>> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions.
>>
>> This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00.
>>
>> Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact.
>>
>> The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.
>>
>> Wayne King
>>
>>
>> --
>> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
>> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
>> Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/.
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>> Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>>
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Keith Bostic
In reply to this post by wayne king


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:04 PM wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Half the people in town think town meeting is the last vestige of direct democracy in the United States. Give them a soap-box, and they'll explain how town meeting ensures properly educated voting, and compare the "Lincoln Way" with government as practiced by the Greek city-states. The other half think it's a total waste of time, and will explain why town meeting is a "poll tax" designed to limit political franchise.

Both halves are probably correct.

--keith
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Keith Bostic
[hidden email]

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Richard Panetta
I will also like to point out according to the squirrel only 35% of registered voters turned out to vote at the ballot on Monday. So making something convenient would not guaranty participation as seen by this number. 

- Rich  

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:53 PM Keith Bostic <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:04 PM wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Half the people in town think town meeting is the last vestige of direct democracy in the United States. Give them a soap-box, and they'll explain how town meeting ensures properly educated voting, and compare the "Lincoln Way" with government as practiced by the Greek city-states. The other half think it's a total waste of time, and will explain why town meeting is a "poll tax" designed to limit political franchise.

Both halves are probably correct.

--keith
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Keith Bostic
[hidden email]
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Keith Bostic
In reply to this post by John Koenig


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:23 PM John Koenig <[hidden email]> wrote:
Whenever anyone says “I don’t have the time for X” what they mean is “X is not a priority for me.”  

Let me make sure I understand you correctly:

Some group decides X is a requirement in order to do Y, and from that day on, should I fail to do X for any reason, that group can reasonably affirm "I don't care about Y".

--keith
 
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Keith Bostic
[hidden email]

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Lincoln mailing list

Was there a reason why the school building vote could not have taken place on the day of the Mid-Term elections 5 weeks ago?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 3:09 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

 

 

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:23 PM John Koenig <[hidden email]> wrote:

Whenever anyone says “I don’t have the time for X” what they mean is “X is not a priority for me.”  

 

Let me make sure I understand you correctly:

 

Some group decides X is a requirement in order to do Y, and from that day on, should I fail to do X for any reason, that group can reasonably affirm "I don't care about Y".

 

--keith

 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Keith Bostic
[hidden email]

 


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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Greg Darnall
In reply to this post by Richard Panetta
With all due respect, Rich, I think that low turnout is a result of disillusionment and certainly not reflective of town engagement on this issue or others.  While I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the TM format is a subtle form of gerrymandering, that practice certainly does create structural impediments to voting and leads to disillusionment that results from that disenfranchisement.  It’s not hard to imagine at least some of that happening with TM.

Like many young/working/coaching lincoln parents I’ve bent over backwards to attend TM and to vote in every election, and I truly love TM in many of the same ways that you and others describe.  That said I think we can keep TM traditions intact while making it’s processes more inclusive, and do so fairly easily through a combination of technology and Lincoln creativity, and it shouldn’t take years or cost very much.  I’ve often wondered how 2012 would have gone if we had done something about this sooner.

I’ve recently learned that when TM was conceived only land owners could attend, and we changed that for good reason.  Given the spirited concern for other citizens that many voiced surrounding the school vote maybe it’s time we minimally tweaked TM in a thoughtful way that gave everyone a chance to weigh in, if not at the microphone then at least at the ballot box, by mail, or on the internet.  We all pay taxes/rent, and we are all impacted by every decision taken at TM.  In my opinion, there shouldn’t be any group that disproportionately suffers or benefits  from TM’s structure.

One man’s opinion. I know that change is hard.

Warmly,
Greg Darnall
Concord Rd

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:59 PM, Richard Panetta <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will also like to point out according to the squirrel only 35% of registered voters turned out to vote at the ballot on Monday. So making something convenient would not guaranty participation as seen by this number. 

- Rich  

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:53 PM Keith Bostic <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:04 PM wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Half the people in town think town meeting is the last vestige of direct democracy in the United States. Give them a soap-box, and they'll explain how town meeting ensures properly educated voting, and compare the "Lincoln Way" with government as practiced by the Greek city-states. The other half think it's a total waste of time, and will explain why town meeting is a "poll tax" designed to limit political franchise.

Both halves are probably correct.

--keith
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Keith Bostic
[hidden email]
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

maggy pietropaolo-2
I had never heard of a town meeting before I moved to Lincoln either. It's a quirky feature of New England, but it is not some old fashioned thing unique to Lincoln - apparently Massachusetts has 351 cities and towns, and nearly 300 towns use Open Town Meetings as their legislature. (Just learned that on google)
For more information on town meetings, you can check out this link:



From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> on behalf of Greg Darnall <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 3:50 PM
To: Richard Panetta
Cc: <[hidden email]>; wayne king
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?
 
With all due respect, Rich, I think that low turnout is a result of disillusionment and certainly not reflective of town engagement on this issue or others.  While I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the TM format is a subtle form of gerrymandering, that practice certainly does create structural impediments to voting and leads to disillusionment that results from that disenfranchisement.  It’s not hard to imagine at least some of that happening with TM.

Like many young/working/coaching lincoln parents I’ve bent over backwards to attend TM and to vote in every election, and I truly love TM in many of the same ways that you and others describe.  That said I think we can keep TM traditions intact while making it’s processes more inclusive, and do so fairly easily through a combination of technology and Lincoln creativity, and it shouldn’t take years or cost very much.  I’ve often wondered how 2012 would have gone if we had done something about this sooner.

I’ve recently learned that when TM was conceived only land owners could attend, and we changed that for good reason.  Given the spirited concern for other citizens that many voiced surrounding the school vote maybe it’s time we minimally tweaked TM in a thoughtful way that gave everyone a chance to weigh in, if not at the microphone then at least at the ballot box, by mail, or on the internet.  We all pay taxes/rent, and we are all impacted by every decision taken at TM.  In my opinion, there shouldn’t be any group that disproportionately suffers or benefits  from TM’s structure.

One man’s opinion. I know that change is hard.

Warmly,
Greg Darnall
Concord Rd

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:59 PM, Richard Panetta <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will also like to point out according to the squirrel only 35% of registered voters turned out to vote at the ballot on Monday. So making something convenient would not guaranty participation as seen by this number. 

- Rich  

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:53 PM Keith Bostic <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:04 PM wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Half the people in town think town meeting is the last vestige of direct democracy in the United States. Give them a soap-box, and they'll explain how town meeting ensures properly educated voting, and compare the "Lincoln Way" with government as practiced by the Greek city-states. The other half think it's a total waste of time, and will explain why town meeting is a "poll tax" designed to limit political franchise.

Both halves are probably correct.

--keith
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Keith Bostic
[hidden email]
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

samattes
In reply to this post by wayne king
If you are not from New England, you might find TM odd.
Many have a different reaction-they appreciate the opportunity to weigh in in any and everything that has an impact on their lives.
The idea of listening to your neighbors is that you might hear a new perspective, might be sensitized to another point of view, and even reconsider your original decision in light of new information.
I share some frustration at the time limitations on participation and debate, but the decision has been made to keep things short.  You can’t keep it short to get a vote AND welcome all voices.
It’s a trade-off.

Democracy was not designed to be efficient!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions.
>
> This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00.
>
> Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact.
>
> The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.
>
> Wayne King
>
>
> --
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

samattes
In reply to this post by maggy pietropaolo-2
Maggie - the link is great 
Should be required reading for all. Homework required before March!

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 4:40 PM, maggy pietropaolo <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had never heard of a town meeting before I moved to Lincoln either. It's a quirky feature of New England, but it is not some old fashioned thing unique to Lincoln - apparently Massachusetts has 351 cities and towns, and nearly 300 towns use Open Town Meetings as their legislature. (Just learned that on google)
For more information on town meetings, you can check out this link:



From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> on behalf of Greg Darnall <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 3:50 PM
To: Richard Panetta
Cc: <[hidden email]>; wayne king
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?
 
With all due respect, Rich, I think that low turnout is a result of disillusionment and certainly not reflective of town engagement on this issue or others.  While I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the TM format is a subtle form of gerrymandering, that practice certainly does create structural impediments to voting and leads to disillusionment that results from that disenfranchisement.  It’s not hard to imagine at least some of that happening with TM.

Like many young/working/coaching lincoln parents I’ve bent over backwards to attend TM and to vote in every election, and I truly love TM in many of the same ways that you and others describe.  That said I think we can keep TM traditions intact while making it’s processes more inclusive, and do so fairly easily through a combination of technology and Lincoln creativity, and it shouldn’t take years or cost very much.  I’ve often wondered how 2012 would have gone if we had done something about this sooner.

I’ve recently learned that when TM was conceived only land owners could attend, and we changed that for good reason.  Given the spirited concern for other citizens that many voiced surrounding the school vote maybe it’s time we minimally tweaked TM in a thoughtful way that gave everyone a chance to weigh in, if not at the microphone then at least at the ballot box, by mail, or on the internet.  We all pay taxes/rent, and we are all impacted by every decision taken at TM.  In my opinion, there shouldn’t be any group that disproportionately suffers or benefits  from TM’s structure.

One man’s opinion. I know that change is hard.

Warmly,
Greg Darnall
Concord Rd

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:59 PM, Richard Panetta <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will also like to point out according to the squirrel only 35% of registered voters turned out to vote at the ballot on Monday. So making something convenient would not guaranty participation as seen by this number. 

- Rich  

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:53 PM Keith Bostic <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 2:04 PM wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:

The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.

Half the people in town think town meeting is the last vestige of direct democracy in the United States. Give them a soap-box, and they'll explain how town meeting ensures properly educated voting, and compare the "Lincoln Way" with government as practiced by the Greek city-states. The other half think it's a total waste of time, and will explain why town meeting is a "poll tax" designed to limit political franchise.

Both halves are probably correct.

--keith
 
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Diana Abrashkin
In reply to this post by samattes
A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task. A certain "idolized" moderator was intolerant of him, which was unfair IMHO, and orchestrated the meeting so that he didn't get a chance to talk until it was nearly too late to count.

Yes, he was a Town "character", but in a wonderful way. I hope Lincoln generates some more of them.

Cheers, Diana

Diana Abrashkin, Registered Architect
www.CuracaoWithDiana.com
www.ADCarchitecture.com
US telephone (781) 259-0203


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 5:11 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you are not from New England, you might find TM odd.
Many have a different reaction-they appreciate the opportunity to weigh in in any and everything that has an impact on their lives.
The idea of listening to your neighbors is that you might hear a new perspective, might be sensitized to another point of view, and even reconsider your original decision in light of new information.
I share some frustration at the time limitations on participation and debate, but the decision has been made to keep things short.  You can’t keep it short to get a vote AND welcome all voices.
It’s a trade-off.

Democracy was not designed to be efficient!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions.
>
> This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00.
>
> Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact.
>
> The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.
>
> Wayne King
>
>
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Candace F Foster
Your comments on  Norman Hapgood on his unicycle at 4th of July parades and at TMs hit me with a flood of memories of TMs of long  ago. Nodding off after listening to lengthy bouts of strong opinion from dozens of one’s friends and neighbors, the audience would perk up when Norman Hapgood got up to speak.  Whatever he was going to say would be an original take on the issue,  and always, always, with a way to do it for loads less money than proposed.   How lucky you were to meet his daughter.  Do you recall if his ideas ever prevailed when it came time to vote?  

Candy Foster



On 4 Dec 16, at 5:25 PM, Diana Abrashkin wrote:

A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task. A certain "idolized" moderator was intolerant of him, which was unfair IMHO, and orchestrated the meeting so that he didn't get a chance to talk until it was nearly too late to count.

Yes, he was a Town "character", but in a wonderful way. I hope Lincoln generates some more of them.

Cheers, Diana

Diana Abrashkin, Registered Architect
www.CuracaoWithDiana.com
www.ADCarchitecture.com
US telephone (781) 259-0203


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 5:11 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you are not from New England, you might find TM odd.
Many have a different reaction-they appreciate the opportunity to weigh in in any and everything that has an impact on their lives.
The idea of listening to your neighbors is that you might hear a new perspective, might be sensitized to another point of view, and even reconsider your original decision in light of new information.
I share some frustration at the time limitations on participation and debate, but the decision has been made to keep things short.  You can’t keep it short to get a vote AND welcome all voices.
It’s a trade-off.

Democracy was not designed to be efficient!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions.
>
> This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00.
>
> Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact.
>
> The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.
>
> Wayne King
>
>
> --
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[LincolnTalk] RIP Norman Hapgood

Alaric
In reply to this post by Diana Abrashkin
On 12/4/2018 5:25 PM, Diana Abrashkin wrote:
> A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task.

For any who missed the pleasure, a snapshot view that does little justice to his magnificent presence, voice, compassion, caliber of insight and analysis...

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Norman H 020704.jpg (900K) Download Attachment
Norman H 070704.jpg (351K) Download Attachment
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

samattes
In reply to this post by Diana Abrashkin
Oh dear, my memory is quite different.
As a newbie to Town Meeting, I recall being annoyed that Norman was invited to the lecture, with his teams of yellow, legal size paper, to lecture us all.
How our memories diverge!


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Diana Abrashkin <[hidden email]> wrote:

A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task. A certain "idolized" moderator was intolerant of him, which was unfair IMHO, and orchestrated the meeting so that he didn't get a chance to talk until it was nearly too late to count.

Yes, he was a Town "character", but in a wonderful way. I hope Lincoln generates some more of them.

Cheers, Diana

Diana Abrashkin, Registered Architect
www.CuracaoWithDiana.com
www.ADCarchitecture.com
US telephone (781) 259-0203


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 5:11 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you are not from New England, you might find TM odd.
Many have a different reaction-they appreciate the opportunity to weigh in in any and everything that has an impact on their lives.
The idea of listening to your neighbors is that you might hear a new perspective, might be sensitized to another point of view, and even reconsider your original decision in light of new information.
I share some frustration at the time limitations on participation and debate, but the decision has been made to keep things short.  You can’t keep it short to get a vote AND welcome all voices.
It’s a trade-off.

Democracy was not designed to be efficient!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, wayne king <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a relative newcomer to Lincoln, I do not understand why this town persists with the TM format for voting. I've attended two town meetings and both times I ended up spending a considerable amount of time that I could not afford waiting to cast a vote I had already decided to cast. Is anyone really swayed by the seemingly endless "debate" that goes on at these meetings? Again, I have only two experiences, but both times it certainly seemed everyone's mind was well made up and still we had to sit there listening to people confirm their own opinions.
>
> This type of "let's all gather at the town square" meeting is an anachronism. It does not scale to the 21st century where people simply don't have the time to dedicate an entire Saturday waiting around for a vote to occur.  Minimally, the votes can be scheduled instead requiring people to wait around. If you want to participate in a debate, come at 9:00. Otherwise, we will vote at 12:00.
>
> Personally, I feel it would be better to have open debates on separate days and all voting is done on a specified day like we did yesterday (12/3). The difference in voter participation between Saturday and Monday was significant and I do not think anyone is surprised by that fact.
>
> The TM format seems almost purposefully engineered to limit participation when we should be doing everything to encourage the same.
>
> Wayne King
>
>
> --
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Re: [LincolnTalk] RIP Norman Hapgood

samattes
In reply to this post by Alaric
As you recall he, without fail , chastised the schools for not offering enough variety of “sports”   He as advocated for the inclusion of unicycling!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 7:12 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> On 12/4/2018 5:25 PM, Diana Abrashkin wrote:
>> A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task.
>
> For any who missed the pleasure, a snapshot view that does little justice to his magnificent presence, voice, compassion, caliber of insight and analysis...
> <Norman H 020704.jpg>
> <Norman H 070704.jpg>
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Why does Lincoln persist with the TM format?

Keith Bostic
In reply to this post by samattes


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 5:11 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Many have a different reaction-they appreciate the opportunity to weigh in in any and everything that has an impact on their lives. The idea of listening to your neighbors is that you might hear a new perspective, might be sensitized to another point of view, and even reconsider your original decision in light of new information. I share some frustration at the time limitations on participation and debate, but the decision has been made to keep things short.  You can’t keep it short to get a vote AND welcome all voices.

This has been bugging me for a few hours -- it's the Lincoln false equivalence that won't die.

Can we just agree that "opportunities to weigh in" are unrelated to requirements on voting?
 
Democracy was not designed to be efficient!

"Town meeting" is not the same as "democracy". If town meeting is less supportive of the equality principle of “one-person, one-vote", town meeting is objectively less democratic than the ballot box.

Those who dislike Town Meeting believe that Town Meeting attendance as a requirement to vote limits franchise, no different from requiring a government ID to vote. You may or may not support a specific limit on franchise (for example, citizenship), but that's not the point. Nobody says Town Meeting is a bad idea, they say Town Meeting attendance shouldn't be a mandatory event.

Here's the thought experiment: Brenda bought a house in Lincoln and registered to vote six months ago. She's been living in Europe since and is unaware of Lincoln's school building proposal. She arrives in Lincoln for the first time Monday and confides in you she's going to vote. As she has no information, she intends to color in ovals at random, perhaps in the shape of a bunny. A town meeting devotee would hide Brenda's car keys to prevent her from voting, while a democracy absolutist would offer her a ride to the school.

--keith
 
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Keith Bostic
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Re: [LincolnTalk] RIP Norman Hapgood

dilla tingley
In reply to this post by samattes
I remember the wonderful interplay with David Donaldson when David was moderator.  Wasn't there a Hapgood Award for someone who saved the Town money?  What happened to it?  Dilla

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:57 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
As you recall he, without fail , chastised the schools for not offering enough variety of “sports”   He as advocated for the inclusion of unicycling!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 7:12 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> On 12/4/2018 5:25 PM, Diana Abrashkin wrote:
>> A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task.
>
> For any who missed the pleasure, a snapshot view that does little justice to his magnificent presence, voice, compassion, caliber of insight and analysis...
> <Norman H 020704.jpg>
> <Norman H 070704.jpg>
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
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Re: [LincolnTalk] RIP Norman Hapgood

Barbara Low
My parents from Chicago were visiting once and came to town meeting,. It was unlike anything they knew in Chicago, and their favorite part was seeing Norm Hapgood. Not all his ideas were off the wall and he always provided smiles and a light touch. No one like that any more.

Barbara

From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> on behalf of dilla tingley <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 10:28 AM
To: Sara Mattes
Cc: Lincoln Talks
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] RIP Norman Hapgood
 
I remember the wonderful interplay with David Donaldson when David was moderator.  Wasn't there a Hapgood Award for someone who saved the Town money?  What happened to it?  Dilla

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 7:57 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
As you recall he, without fail , chastised the schools for not offering enough variety of “sports”   He as advocated for the inclusion of unicycling!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 7:12 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> On 12/4/2018 5:25 PM, Diana Abrashkin wrote:
>> A propos of TM, I had the pleasure the other day of meeting a daughter of Norman Hapgood. Can you remember him??? He rode a unicycle every year in the 4th of July parade. But was also known for being a fixture of Town Meeting. He could be counted on to suggest a very much cheaper way to accomplish any town task.
>
> For any who missed the pleasure, a snapshot view that does little justice to his magnificent presence, voice, compassion, caliber of insight and analysis...
> <Norman H 020704.jpg>
> <Norman H 070704.jpg>
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to [hidden email].
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