[LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

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[LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Dennis Liu

To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/03/24/coronavirus-fact-check-could-vitamin-c-cure-covid-19/2904303001/

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/no-the-shanghai-government-has-not-recommended-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-treatment-for-covid-19/

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

https://youtu.be/54D62zap67c

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Lincoln mailing list
This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.




On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:


To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/03/24/coronavirus-fact-check-could-vitamin-c-cure-covid-19/2904303001/

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/no-the-shanghai-government-has-not-recommended-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-treatment-for-covid-19/

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

https://youtu.be/54D62zap67c

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Rhoda Taschioglou
In reply to this post by Dennis Liu


On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:11 AM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

To all:
 
Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 
 
It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]
 
It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.
 
An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."
 
As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.
 
As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.
 
 
 
Stay well, everyone.
 
--Dennis
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
 
Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.
 
Mary Rosenfeld
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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Dennis Liu
In reply to this post by Lincoln mailing list

Mary Rosenfeld wrote:

 

>This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.

 

…and this precisely supports my plea for folks to check sources before spreading to others.

 

Anyone can take a look at the video link that Mary provided to see that the author is a doctor that promotes QUACK theories about cancer, sells bullsh!t supplements for weight loss and general health, and even runs his own pyramid scheme pay people who can rope in others who pay for his diet plan.  It’s disgusting that someone would take advantage of this global crisis to make a few more bucks.

 

Quack cancer theory:  http://www.drwlc.com/blog/2017/03/16/integrative-cancer-therapies-introduction/  wherein he cures cancer, even advanced stage cancer, by using a ketogenic diet plus diet supplements plus large dose . . . wait for it . . . intravenous vitamin C.

 

Diet supplements Skin care products  for sale:  http://www.drwlc.com/blog/category/medications-and-products/

 

Promoting hCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) for weight loss and other miracle benefits:  http://www.drwlc.com/blog/2011/11/10/hcgs-role-in-this-diet-1/  (insanity:  https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/expert-answers/hcg-diet/faq-20058164 )

 

Pyramid scheme (!!!):  http://www.drwlc.com/blog/2012/01/10/do-you-want-to-earn-400month-in-supplemental-income/

 

Please, please, please, everyone, don’t spread misinformation.

 

--Dennis

 

From: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:27 AM
To: '<[hidden email]>' <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/03/24/coronavirus-fact-check-could-vitamin-c-cure-covid-19/2904303001/

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/no-the-shanghai-government-has-not-recommended-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-treatment-for-covid-19/

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

https://youtu.be/54D62zap67c

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

--

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

samattes
In reply to this post by Lincoln mailing list
Dennis is absolutely correct.

While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.

Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.
They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.
As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.
And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.

So, sit tight.
As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.
Production is ramping up.

Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).
Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.

Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.
Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.

Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.
One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.
And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

Leave it to the known med. professionals.
Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.

Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.

Sit tight.

Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!

Namaste
 Sara



On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.




On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:


To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

 

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld
--
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To post, send mail to [hidden email].
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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Dennis Liu

Sara wrote:

 

>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.

 

What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.

 

To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.

 

But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”

 

--Dennis

 

 

From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

Dennis is absolutely correct.

 

While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.

 

Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.

They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.

As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.

And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.

 

So, sit tight.

As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.

Production is ramping up.

 

Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).

Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.

 

Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.

Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.

 

Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.

One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.

And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

Leave it to the known med. professionals.

Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.

 

Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.

 

Sit tight.

 

Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!

 

Namaste

 Sara

 

 



On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

 

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

--

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To post, send mail to [hidden email].

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

samattes
Dennis,
My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.

We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.
Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.

I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.

Regards,
Sara





On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara wrote:
 
>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.
 
What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.
 
To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.
 
But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”
 
--Dennis
 
 
From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
Dennis is absolutely correct.
 
While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.
 
Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.
They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.
As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.
And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.
 
So, sit tight.
As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.
Production is ramping up.
 
Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).
Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.
 
Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.
Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.
 
Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.
One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.
And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
Leave it to the known med. professionals.
Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.
 
Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.
 
Sit tight.
 
Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!
 
Namaste
 Sara
 
 


On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
 
To all:
 
Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 
 
It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]
 
It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.
 
An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."
 
As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.
 
As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.
 
 
 
Stay well, everyone.
 
--Dennis
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
 
Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.
 
Mary Rosenfeld
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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Bob Kupperstein
No, that 'case', if true, is exactly why Trump's statement was reckless and irresponsible.  He should not be making comments about specific treatments that are in trial for the exact reason that people may take them out of context.

He's the president of the United States - he shouldn't be absolved by the I'm not responsible for what people may do with the stuff I say excuse.  Every president before him has been held to a much higher standard - why do we keep lowering the bar for him?

-Bob

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:49 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dennis,
My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.

We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.
Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.

I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.

Regards,
Sara





On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara wrote:
 
>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.
 
What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.
 
To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.
 
But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”
 
--Dennis
 
 
From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
Dennis is absolutely correct.
 
While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.
 
Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.
They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.
As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.
And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.
 
So, sit tight.
As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.
Production is ramping up.
 
Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).
Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.
 
Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.
Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.
 
Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.
One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.
And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
Leave it to the known med. professionals.
Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.
 
Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.
 
Sit tight.
 
Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!
 
Namaste
 Sara
 
 


On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
 
To all:
 
Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 
 
It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]
 
It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.
 
An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."
 
As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.
 
As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.
 
 
 
Stay well, everyone.
 
--Dennis
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
 
Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.
 
Mary Rosenfeld
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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Dennis Liu

[…and here we go.  I can’t believe I’m being forced to defend a man that I think is a terrible human being, but….  And to be clear, I’m making this point in defense of the advice to stop listening to, or believing in, anything that you’re seeing on the interwebs or via email lists or from your cousin’s boyfriend who knows this doctor, etc.  See if it’s coming from the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university – and not a doctor who happens to work, or is claimed to work, at such a hospital or university.]

 

For the avoidance of doubt, let’s go to the actual record and see what Trump said.  I’ve reproduced the transcript below of the press conference that falls into the timeline of the couple that drank caustic cleaning chemicals.  What does Trump actually say?  To summarize:

 

  1. Hydroxychloroquine is a common malaria drug, also used for arthritis.
  2. Because it’s an already approved drug, it can be used immediately, and we are seeing every encouraging early results.
  3. Individual states and doctors will handle it, and we are quickly studying this drug.  We are going to try it in states, including NY, where Governor Cuomo wants to be on the front line.
  4. Another promising drug is remdesivir, produced by Gilead, and that’s already approved so we can use that quickly.
  5. These are two promising drugs, already prescribed for other uses, and I think it could be a game changer, but maybe not, but based on what I see, could be a powerful game changer.
  6. For the FDA to act with the speed they have is incredible, and instead of waiting a year or two, but because these two drugs are approved for unrelated things, we can use them now.  We believe these therapeutics will be able to provide relief, and really hope that this is going to be, could be a tremendous breakthrough, and we’re also working towards a vaccine in the future.

 

Sara and Bob – first off, do you take exception to any of the things listed above that Trump actually said?  Sure, one can make the argument that Trump – or any politician – should not say anything and let only qualified scientists say something, but do you actually think any of the statements above are incorrect?

 

As I noted, hydroxychloroquine is being studied right now; the initial hopes seem to have faded, but it is still being studied.  At the time this press conference happened, the anecdotal evidence was promising; that’s insufficient, of course, for any clinical recommendations.  But re-read the transcript.  Do you really think what Trump said was grossly misleading? 

 

Secondly, consider a hypothetical.  Let’s say that hydroxychloroquine was incredibly effective at treating the symptoms of COVID-19, and that after Trump spoke, medical authorities chimed in and said, “the president is absolutely right, hydroxychloroquine works, and patients with COVID-19 will be prescribed hydroxychloroquine by their doctors starting today”.  If this were the situation, would you still be blaming Trump for the death of the man who purchased and consumed chloroquine phosphate without a doctor? 

 

---------

 

Here's the relevant portion of the transcript, unedited except I’ve highlighted in bold the points I summarized above:

 

Now, a drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it, hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine, so chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.  Now, this is a common malaria drug. It’s also a drug used for strong arthritis. Somebody who has pretty serious arthritis also uses this in a somewhat different form, but it is known as a malaria drug and it’s been around for a long time and it’s very powerful. But the nice part is it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if it … If things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody. When you go with a brand new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen. You have to see and you have to go long test. But this has been used in different forms, very powerful drug in different forms and it’s shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results, and we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They’ve gone through the approval process, it’s been approved, and they did it. They took it down from many, many months to immediate.

 

Donald Trump: (14:15)

So we’re going to be able to make that drug available by prescription or states … I spoke with governor Cuomo about it at great length last night and he wants to be right on … He wants to be first on the line. And so I think that’s a tremendous … There’s tremendous promise based on the results and other tests. There’s tremendous promise. And normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that and it was approved very, very quickly and it’s now approved by prescription. Individual states will handle it, they can handle it, doctors will handle it. And I think it’s going to be great. Then we’re quickly studying this drug and while we’re continuing to study it, but the studying is going to be also done in … As it’s given out to large groups of people, perhaps in New York and other places.

 

Donald Trump: (15:18)

We’ll study it there. There are promising therapies produced by Gilead, and that’s remdesivir, remdesivir, and that’s a drug used for other purposes that’s been out, and it’s had very good results for other purposes, but it seems to have a very good result having to do with this virus, and that drug also has been approved or very close to approved, in that case, by the FDA, and I can’t tell you how much we appreciate what the FDA, these people are incredible patriots and the job that Stephen Hahn is doing, Dr. Hahn, who’s one of the most respected doctors in the country by the way, where we took him … I said, “You sure you want to do this?” Now we didn’t know that this was going to be in the playlist of what happened here. But he really has stepped up to the plate, wherever you are.

 

Donald Trump: (16:19)

Where is he? You really have. I’d shake his hand, but I’m not supposed to do that. Get in a lot of trouble if I did that, but he’s been fantastic and I thank you doctor. He’s going to speak right after I’m finished. So Regeneron, again, is a company that’s done fantastically well as I understand with Ebola and some other things, great company and they’re looking at some very promising events also. So you have remdesivir and you have a hydroxychloroquine. So those are two that are out now, essentially approved for prescribed use. And I think it’s going to be very exciting. I think it could be a game changer, and maybe not and maybe not, but I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer. Very powerful. They’re very powerful.

 

Donald Trump: (17:21)

So I want every American to know that we’re doing everything we can and these actions are important next steps. I mean, for the FDA to act the way they acted with this kind of speed is an incredible thing. Normally they’d say, “Well, we can have it by next year or we can have it by in two years from now.” You understand, this is the way. Normally it’s like years and years and years, they had it immediately. Based on the fact that it’s been used for other things. Totally unrelated things. We believe these therapeutics and others under evaluation right now will be able to provide relief to many Americans. We really hope that’s going to be, this could be a tremendous breakthrough, tremendous breakthrough, and we will work toward a much needed vaccine in the future, as I said, and what we’re doing with the FDA is so exciting and so many other fields, so many things are happening.

 

Vty,

 

--Dennis

 

 

From: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 1:00 PM
To: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Cc: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

No, that 'case', if true, is exactly why Trump's statement was reckless and irresponsible.  He should not be making comments about specific treatments that are in trial for the exact reason that people may take them out of context.

 

He's the president of the United States - he shouldn't be absolved by the I'm not responsible for what people may do with the stuff I say excuse.  Every president before him has been held to a much higher standard - why do we keep lowering the bar for him?

 

-Bob

 

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:49 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dennis,

My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.

 

We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.

Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.

 

I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.

 

Regards,

Sara

 

 

 

 



On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Sara wrote:

 

>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.

 

What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.

 

To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.

 

But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”

 

--Dennis

 

 

From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

Dennis is absolutely correct.

 

While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.

 

Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.

They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.

As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.

And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.

 

So, sit tight.

As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.

Production is ramping up.

 

Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).

Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.

 

Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.

Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.

 

Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.

One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.

And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

Leave it to the known med. professionals.

Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.

 

Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.

 

Sit tight.

 

Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!

 

Namaste

 Sara

 

 

 

On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

 

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

awaugh
Just posted in the Squirrel -- this covers potentially fraudulent claims, products, and general scams:

Alice Waugh

Editor, The Lincoln Squirrel

[hidden email]

617-710-5542 (mobile)


On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 1:46 PM Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

[…and here we go.  I can’t believe I’m being forced to defend a man that I think is a terrible human being, but….  And to be clear, I’m making this point in defense of the advice to stop listening to, or believing in, anything that you’re seeing on the interwebs or via email lists or from your cousin’s boyfriend who knows this doctor, etc.  See if it’s coming from the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university – and not a doctor who happens to work, or is claimed to work, at such a hospital or university.]

 

For the avoidance of doubt, let’s go to the actual record and see what Trump said.  I’ve reproduced the transcript below of the press conference that falls into the timeline of the couple that drank caustic cleaning chemicals.  What does Trump actually say?  To summarize:

 

  1. Hydroxychloroquine is a common malaria drug, also used for arthritis.
  2. Because it’s an already approved drug, it can be used immediately, and we are seeing every encouraging early results.
  3. Individual states and doctors will handle it, and we are quickly studying this drug.  We are going to try it in states, including NY, where Governor Cuomo wants to be on the front line.
  4. Another promising drug is remdesivir, produced by Gilead, and that’s already approved so we can use that quickly.
  5. These are two promising drugs, already prescribed for other uses, and I think it could be a game changer, but maybe not, but based on what I see, could be a powerful game changer.
  6. For the FDA to act with the speed they have is incredible, and instead of waiting a year or two, but because these two drugs are approved for unrelated things, we can use them now.  We believe these therapeutics will be able to provide relief, and really hope that this is going to be, could be a tremendous breakthrough, and we’re also working towards a vaccine in the future.

 

Sara and Bob – first off, do you take exception to any of the things listed above that Trump actually said?  Sure, one can make the argument that Trump – or any politician – should not say anything and let only qualified scientists say something, but do you actually think any of the statements above are incorrect?

 

As I noted, hydroxychloroquine is being studied right now; the initial hopes seem to have faded, but it is still being studied.  At the time this press conference happened, the anecdotal evidence was promising; that’s insufficient, of course, for any clinical recommendations.  But re-read the transcript.  Do you really think what Trump said was grossly misleading? 

 

Secondly, consider a hypothetical.  Let’s say that hydroxychloroquine was incredibly effective at treating the symptoms of COVID-19, and that after Trump spoke, medical authorities chimed in and said, “the president is absolutely right, hydroxychloroquine works, and patients with COVID-19 will be prescribed hydroxychloroquine by their doctors starting today”.  If this were the situation, would you still be blaming Trump for the death of the man who purchased and consumed chloroquine phosphate without a doctor? 

 

---------

 

Here's the relevant portion of the transcript, unedited except I’ve highlighted in bold the points I summarized above:

 

Now, a drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it, hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine, so chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.  Now, this is a common malaria drug. It’s also a drug used for strong arthritis. Somebody who has pretty serious arthritis also uses this in a somewhat different form, but it is known as a malaria drug and it’s been around for a long time and it’s very powerful. But the nice part is it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if it … If things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody. When you go with a brand new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen. You have to see and you have to go long test. But this has been used in different forms, very powerful drug in different forms and it’s shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results, and we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They’ve gone through the approval process, it’s been approved, and they did it. They took it down from many, many months to immediate.

 

Donald Trump: (14:15)

So we’re going to be able to make that drug available by prescription or states … I spoke with governor Cuomo about it at great length last night and he wants to be right on … He wants to be first on the line. And so I think that’s a tremendous … There’s tremendous promise based on the results and other tests. There’s tremendous promise. And normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that and it was approved very, very quickly and it’s now approved by prescription. Individual states will handle it, they can handle it, doctors will handle it. And I think it’s going to be great. Then we’re quickly studying this drug and while we’re continuing to study it, but the studying is going to be also done in … As it’s given out to large groups of people, perhaps in New York and other places.

 

Donald Trump: (15:18)

We’ll study it there. There are promising therapies produced by Gilead, and that’s remdesivir, remdesivir, and that’s a drug used for other purposes that’s been out, and it’s had very good results for other purposes, but it seems to have a very good result having to do with this virus, and that drug also has been approved or very close to approved, in that case, by the FDA, and I can’t tell you how much we appreciate what the FDA, these people are incredible patriots and the job that Stephen Hahn is doing, Dr. Hahn, who’s one of the most respected doctors in the country by the way, where we took him … I said, “You sure you want to do this?” Now we didn’t know that this was going to be in the playlist of what happened here. But he really has stepped up to the plate, wherever you are.

 

Donald Trump: (16:19)

Where is he? You really have. I’d shake his hand, but I’m not supposed to do that. Get in a lot of trouble if I did that, but he’s been fantastic and I thank you doctor. He’s going to speak right after I’m finished. So Regeneron, again, is a company that’s done fantastically well as I understand with Ebola and some other things, great company and they’re looking at some very promising events also. So you have remdesivir and you have a hydroxychloroquine. So those are two that are out now, essentially approved for prescribed use. And I think it’s going to be very exciting. I think it could be a game changer, and maybe not and maybe not, but I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer. Very powerful. They’re very powerful.

 

Donald Trump: (17:21)

So I want every American to know that we’re doing everything we can and these actions are important next steps. I mean, for the FDA to act the way they acted with this kind of speed is an incredible thing. Normally they’d say, “Well, we can have it by next year or we can have it by in two years from now.” You understand, this is the way. Normally it’s like years and years and years, they had it immediately. Based on the fact that it’s been used for other things. Totally unrelated things. We believe these therapeutics and others under evaluation right now will be able to provide relief to many Americans. We really hope that’s going to be, this could be a tremendous breakthrough, tremendous breakthrough, and we will work toward a much needed vaccine in the future, as I said, and what we’re doing with the FDA is so exciting and so many other fields, so many things are happening.

 

Vty,

 

--Dennis

 

 

From: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 1:00 PM
To: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Cc: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

No, that 'case', if true, is exactly why Trump's statement was reckless and irresponsible.  He should not be making comments about specific treatments that are in trial for the exact reason that people may take them out of context.

 

He's the president of the United States - he shouldn't be absolved by the I'm not responsible for what people may do with the stuff I say excuse.  Every president before him has been held to a much higher standard - why do we keep lowering the bar for him?

 

-Bob

 

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:49 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dennis,

My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.

 

We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.

Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.

 

I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.

 

Regards,

Sara

 

 

 

 



On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Sara wrote:

 

>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.

 

What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.

 

To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.

 

But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”

 

--Dennis

 

 

From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

Dennis is absolutely correct.

 

While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.

 

Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.

They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.

As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.

And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.

 

So, sit tight.

As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.

Production is ramping up.

 

Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).

Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.

 

Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.

Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.

 

Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.

One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.

And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

Leave it to the known med. professionals.

Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.

 

Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.

 

Sit tight.

 

Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!

 

Namaste

 Sara

 

 

 

On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

 

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

samattes
In reply to this post by Dennis Liu
Dennis,
This is quite the challenge - on the one hand, I am admonished to withhold commentary as I am not with  the CDC, WHO or a teaching hospital or university…just married to one works in one-teaching hospital and university.
And, it is suggested that a doctor that happens to work at one of the aforementioned is not to be listened to either.
(Well, my husband says I never listen to him anyway)
What if they have noteworthy appointments, are chairs of divisions, are published and sit on multiple review committees?
I would suggest that there are many recognized experts, in the appropriate fields, worth heeding.

I would be happy to defer to the CDC/Fauci or our state DPH and even our local Board of Health.
They are all designated authorities.

 Donald Trump and I are not.

But given that you have thrown down the gauntlet, I will have some fun attempting to work through the transcript you have printed below.
The tortured use of the English language provides an extra challenge…he clearly did not have L/S’s  Susan Frommer for Freshman English.

Threaded throughout  is another challenge.
It is a bit tough to provide documentation of a false statement, as you will see below.
When it is asserted that there are encouraging results when no such results exist, how do you prove that they do not?
I would urge a simple Google search, or if you have access, PubMed.


On Mar 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

[…and here we go.  I can’t believe I’m being forced to defend a man that I think is a terrible human being, but….  And to be clear, I’m making this point in defense of the advice to stop listening to, or believing in, anything that you’re seeing on the interwebs or via email lists or from your cousin’s boyfriend who knows this doctor, etc.  See if it’s coming from the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university – and not a doctor who happens to work, or is claimed to work, at such a hospital or university.]
 
For the avoidance of doubt, let’s go to the actual record and see what Trump said.  I’ve reproduced the transcript below of the press conference that falls into the timeline of the couple that drank caustic cleaning chemicals.  What does Trump actually say?  To summarize:
 
  1. Hydroxychloroquine is a common malaria drug, also used for arthritis.
Yes, but there are much better arthritis drugs
  1. Because it’s an already approved drug, it can be used immediately, and we are seeing every encouraging early results.
Who and what was he referencing?
There are no papers to support this statement.
It works in the lab to kill virus, but not in mammals.
A soon to be released paper, in fact, shows it did NOT work for Corona.

  1. Individual states and doctors will handle it, and we are quickly studying this drug.  We are going to try it in states, including NY, where Governor Cuomo wants to be on the front line.
Yes, there  are some trials.  It is not clear who “we” are?  Who is “quickly studying it?”
There is NO evidence of “encouraging early results."
  1. Another promising drug is remdesivir, produced by Gilead, and that’s already approved so we can use that quickly.
Yes, there are some trials under way with results expected in 2-3 months.
Trials are underway, at the Brigham & MGH, in sick patients.

  1. These are two promising drugs, already prescribed for other uses, and I think it could be a game changer, but maybe not, but based on what I see, could be a powerful game changer
The former has not been demonstrating promise, the later, yes.
  1. For the FDA to act with the speed they have is incredible, and instead of waiting a year or two, but because these two drugs are approved for unrelated things, we can use them now. 
FDA has, in fact, relaxed all requirements so things are being fast tracked into clinical trials.   No requirements to demonstrate either safety or efficacy.
This is for trials only, not for actual use.
That must come later.
  1. We believe these therapeutics will be able to provide relief, and really hope that this is going to be, could be a tremendous breakthrough, and we’re also working towards a vaccine in the future.
Who is “we?”   Until the trials provide some evidence of both safety AND efficacy, they are  not approved for use.  
There are other therapies that have been successful in treating other viruses,  Research their potential use for corona is also in the pipeline, but, again, no actual data or accepted reports/papers.
Yes, vaccine work is a pace.
 
Sara and Bob – first off, do you take exception to any of the things listed above that Trump actually said?  Sure, one can make the argument that Trump – or any politician – should not say anything and let only qualified scientists say something, but do you actually think any of the statements above are incorrect?
Yes,  see above.
 
As I noted, hydroxychloroquine is being studied right now; the initial hopes seem to have faded, but it is still being studied.  At the time this press conference happened, the anecdotal evidence was promising; that’s insufficient, of course, for any clinical recommendations.  But re-read the transcript.  Do you really think what Trump said was grossly misleading?  
Yes-see above.
The use of the term “anecdotal” by Fauci was to try and give Trump a graceful way to back away from again, playing fast and loose.
Where did Trump get this “info?”   Not from Fauci or the CDC or the FDA.
It turns out it was bandied about on Fox & Friends and Fox was Trump's source.

 
Secondly, consider a hypothetical.  Let’s say that hydroxychloroquine was incredibly effective at treating the symptoms of COVID-19, and that after Trump spoke, medical authorities chimed in and said, “the president is absolutely right, hydroxychloroquine works, and patients with COVID-19 will be prescribed hydroxychloroquine by their doctors starting today”.  If this were the situation, would you still be blaming Trump for the death of the man who purchased and consumed chloroquine phosphate without a doctor?  
A leader with the bully pulpit as powerful as the President of the United States needs to be VERY careful with his words.
Again, that should have been left to the CDC rep. to speak to.
 
OK As someone, a non-typist, who is notorious for misspelling and auto-correct that was incorrect and all kinds of errors, it is a bit risky to try to critique this “unusual” use /misuse of the English language. The NYT does a good job with a weekly “Fact Check” and CNN (I know, both “fake news”) did a recent compilation of misstatement of facts regarding Corona: 


But, I will try to weigh in on the lines where clear misstatements are made.  Much of what he does is by suggestion and it is hard to critique that.
  
Here's the relevant portion of the transcript, unedited except I’ve highlighted in bold the points I summarized above:
 
Now, a drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it, hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine, so chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.  Now, this is a common malaria drug. It’s also a drug used for strong arthritis.
Yes, it is a malaria drug.   Don’t know what “strong” arthritis is, so cannot comment.
Somebody who has pretty serious arthritis also uses this in a somewhat different form, but it is known as a malaria drug and it’s been around for a long time and it’s very powerful.
Yes, it’s been around, but not used very much anymore.
But the nice part is it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if it … If things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody.
Correct, unless you take too much.
When you go with a brand new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen.
That’s why you first do bench work and then advance to clinical trials
You have to see and you have to go long test.
Have no clue what “long test” is.  Testing takes time in order to prove a treatment is first safe, and then efficacious.
But this has been used in different forms, very powerful drug in different forms and it’s shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results
NO…it has shown NO results, to date.
, and we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately.
Yes
And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They’ve gone through the approval process, it’s been approved, and they did it.
Wrong, he just said the drug was already approved for other uses.
They took it down from many, many months to immediate.
It was already approved.
 
Donald Trump: (14:15)
So we’re going to be able to make that drug available by prescription   or states …
What?  “Or states….”  Have no clue what that means.

I spoke with governor Cuomo about it at great length last night and he wants to be right on … He wants to be first on the line.
Don’t know.  Have not read Cuomo’s response.
And so I think that’s a tremendous … There’s tremendous promise based on the results and other tests.
Wrong-he is now off the rails in talking about the approved drug for malaria and arthritis.
THERE ARE NO RESULTS THAT IT Is EFFICACIOUS FOR COVID 19!
There’s tremendous promise. And normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that and it was approved very, very quickly and it’s now approved by prescription.
What?  It’s already approved, but not proven to do anything.
 Individual states will handle it, they can handle it, doctors will handle it. And I think it’s going to be great.
Again, is he talking about the chloroquine?   
Why does he think its going to be great?   Based on what?

Then we’re quickly studying this drug and while we’re continuing to study it, but the studying is going to be also done in … As it’s given out to large groups of people, perhaps in New York and other places.
Who is giving it out?   To large groups of people?
 
Donald Trump: (15:18)
We’ll study it there. 
Where?
There are promising therapies produced by Gilead, and that’s remdesivir, remdesivir, and that’s a drug used for other purposes that’s been out,
Yes
Here is as good a report as any:

and it’s had very good results for other purposes, but it seems to have a very good result having to do with this virus,
No documentation, to date.
and that drug also has been approved or very close to approved,
It is approved for OTHER treatments, NOT Corona virus.
in that case, by the FDA, and I can’t tell you how much we appreciate what the FDA, these people are incredible patriots and the job that Stephen Hahn is doing, Dr. Hahn, who’s one of the most respected doctors in the country by the way, where we took him … I said, “You sure you want to do this?” Now we didn’t know that this was going to be in the playlist of what happened here. But he really has stepped up to the plate, wherever you are.
I cannot begin to comment on these bizarre turns of phrases…in his playlist….
 
Donald Trump: (16:19)
Where is he? You really have. I’d shake his hand, but I’m not supposed to do that. Get in a lot of trouble if I did that, but he’s been fantastic and I thank you doctor. He’s going to speak right after I’m finished. So Regeneron, again, is a company that’s done fantastically well as I understand with Ebola and some other things, great company and they’re looking at some very promising events also. 
Ye, Regeneron is working on anew approach, but again, NO results so there is no truth in the the phrase “very promising events."
So you have remdesivir and you have a hydroxychloroquine. So those are two that are out now, essentially approved for prescribed use.
He implies that these are now out for use.
This is incorrect.
These drugs are NOT approved for use with Corona virus…only for testing.
Chloroquine is approved for other uses, but not Corona.
Remdesivir is ONLY approved for testing, to date, and NOT approved for ANY other use.
So, both parts of this phrase are either incorrect or misleading.
And I think it’s going to be very exciting. I think it could be a game changer, and maybe not and maybe not,
Correct-maybe, maybe not!
but I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer. Very powerful. They’re very powerful.
Wrong, no evidence, no proof.  What does he see that the scientific community does not?
 
Donald Trump: (17:21)
So I want every American to know that we’re doing everything we can and these actions are important next steps.
What actions are important next steps?
I mean, for the FDA to act the way they acted with this kind of speed is an incredible thing. Normally they’d say, “Well, we can have it by next year or we can have it by in two years from now.” You understand, this is the way. Normally it’s like years and years and years, they had it immediately. 
They did NOT “have it immediately.  They relaxed all standard for testing these 2 known drugs for safety efficacy in Cornona virus.  It is for testing, and testing only.
Based on the fact that it’s been used for other things.
Only Chloroquine.   NOT Remdesvir.
Totally unrelated things. We believe these therapeutics and others under evaluation right now will be able to provide relief to many Americans.
Who is “we?”  And belief based on what?   There is no scientific  evidence, to date.
We really hope that’s going to be, this could be a tremendous breakthrough, tremendous breakthrough,
Yes we ALL really hope  for a breakthrough - 
and we will work toward a much needed vaccine in the future, as I said, and what we’re doing with the FDA
What are they doing with the FDA???? God help us!
is so exciting and so many other fields,
What other fields?  This is getting scary with each turn of the phrase.
so many things are happening.
Now, that’s the truth!
 
Vty,
 
--Dennis

There you have it.
I gave it my best shot.
Lord help us all!
Stay safe.

Sara

PS-remember, shop local…you don’t know what you’ve got ’til its gone.
 
 
From: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]> 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 1:00 PM
To: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Cc: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
No, that 'case', if true, is exactly why Trump's statement was reckless and irresponsible.  He should not be making comments about specific treatments that are in trial for the exact reason that people may take them out of context.
 
He's the president of the United States - he shouldn't be absolved by the I'm not responsible for what people may do with the stuff I sayexcuse.  Every president before him has been held to a much higher standard - why do we keep lowering the bar for him?
 
-Bob
 
On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:49 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dennis,
My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.
 
We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.
Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.
 
I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.
 
Regards,
Sara
 
 
 
 


On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Sara wrote:
 
>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.
 
What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.
 
To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.
 
But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”
 
--Dennis
 
 
From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
Dennis is absolutely correct.
 
While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.
 
Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.
They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.
As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.
And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.
 
So, sit tight.
As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.
Production is ramping up.
 
Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).
Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.
 
Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.
Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.
 
Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.
One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.
And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
Leave it to the known med. professionals.
Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.
 
Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.
 
Sit tight.
 
Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!
 
Namaste
 Sara
 
 

 

On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
 
To all:
 
Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 
 
It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]
 
It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.
 
An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."
 
As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.
 
As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.
 
 
 
Stay well, everyone.
 
--Dennis
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
 
Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.
 
Mary Rosenfeld
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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Dennis Liu

Sara wrote (emphasis added)

 

>It is a bit tough to provide documentation of a false statement, as you will see below.

>When it is asserted that there are encouraging results when no such results exist, how do you prove that they do not?  I would urge a simple Google search, or if you have access, PubMed. 

>Who and what was he referencing?  There are no papers to support this statement.  It works in the lab to kill virus, but not in mammals.  A soon to be released paper, in fact, shows it did NOT work for Corona.

>Yes, there  are some trials.  It is not clear who “we” are?  Who is “quickly studying it?”  There is NO evidence of “encouraging early results."

 

Of course *I* did do a google search.  Before I posted about Hydroxychloroquine .  There was indeed lots of widespread, publicly reported hope about the potential efficacy of this drug. 

 

Among the dozens if not hundreds of examples that were published on or before Trump made his comments during a press conference on March 19:

  1. “Old malaria drug hydroxychloroquine may help cure coronavirus: study”  https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/old-malaria-drug-hydroxychloroquine-may-help-cure-coronavirus-study/
  2. “Malaria drug sees promising signs as future coronavirus treatment” https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/malaria-drug-sees-promising-signs-as-future-coronavirus-treatment
  3. “US testing two generic drugs as possible coronavirus treatments” https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/488410-us-testing-two-generic-drugs-as-possible-coronavirus
  4. “French study finds anti-malarial and antibiotic combo could reduce COVID-19 duration” https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/19/french-study-finds-anti-malarial-and-antibiotic-combo-could-reduce-covid-19-duration/
  5. “COVID-19: Could Hydroxychloroquine Really Be An Answer?”  https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927033

Thus, I don’t know why you would argue that no encouraging results exist?  Plenty of proof that initial (but not conclusive) studies offered hope.  And, yes, as I acknowledged in my prior postings, subsequent research has diminished that hope (though studies are still ongoing).  Remember, Trump was speaking on March 19, a week ago, when the medical community did have hope that Hydroxychloroquine would prove to be effective.

 

Again, Sara, I ask you – what specifically do you allege was a false statement at the time he made it?   Your insertions below criticize Trump’s speaking manner (which is terrible), or his general statements about FDA approval processes (yeah, he’s certainly not expert in that), and picks nits that aren’t material (um, okay, Hydroxychloroquine is not the best drug for treatment of arthritis, but . . . who said that it’s the best drug for that?). 

 

The issue that you raised was that Trump made false statements which led to that guy to consume aquarium cleaner.  Trump is a congenital liar!  You can tell he’s lying by seeing if his lips are moving!  I wouldn’t trust him on most anything!  BUT he didn’t make any false statements during this press conference that would lead any reasonable, rational person to think that it’d be safe to consume aquarium cleaner to treat COVID-19.

 

Sara wrote:

 

>This is quite the challenge - on the one hand, I am admonished to withhold commentary as I am not with  the CDC, WHO or a teaching hospital or university…just married to one works in one-teaching hospital and university.  And, it is suggested that a doctor that happens to work at one of the aforementioned is not to be listened to either.  (Well, my husband says I never listen to him anyway)  What if they have noteworthy appointments, are chairs of divisions, are published and sit on multiple review committees?  I would suggest that there are many recognized experts, in the appropriate fields, worth heeding.

 

To clarify, I’m not saying not to believe in public statements from doctors working in the actual field, whether respiratory, epidemiology, virology, etc.  I was referring to the emails that get sent around – including on this mailing list – referencing things like, “the advice below came from a Stanford doctor!  It’s tips on how to self-diagnose by facing north and coughing!”  There is all the difference in the world between a doctor speaking publicly (via a release or a web site or interview with credible news media), versus something being circulated via email or social media

 

In conclusion, Sara, your assertions that Trump made material false statements all seem to center around the fact that, as of today (3/26), it appears that Hydroxychloroquine does not offer the same hope that it had a week ago, when Trump spoke on this (3/19).  Thus, those statements would fairly be characterized as “expressing hope that this drug would turn out to be effective, but, alas, seems not to be.”  Rather than FALSE at the time he made them.

 

Anyway, enough diversion.  I need to shower to wash this disgust off me from having to spend time defending a loathsome human being.  But truth should be defended when needed.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 5:23 PM
To: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Cc: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

Dennis,

This is quite the challenge - on the one hand, I am admonished to withhold commentary as I am not with  the CDC, WHO or a teaching hospital or university…just married to one works in one-teaching hospital and university.

And, it is suggested that a doctor that happens to work at one of the aforementioned is not to be listened to either.

(Well, my husband says I never listen to him anyway)

What if they have noteworthy appointments, are chairs of divisions, are published and sit on multiple review committees?

I would suggest that there are many recognized experts, in the appropriate fields, worth heeding.

 

I would be happy to defer to the CDC/Fauci or our state DPH and even our local Board of Health.

They are all designated authorities.

 

 Donald Trump and I are not.

 

But given that you have thrown down the gauntlet, I will have some fun attempting to work through the transcript you have printed below.

The tortured use of the English language provides an extra challenge…he clearly did not have L/S’s  Susan Frommer for Freshman English.

 

Threaded throughout  is another challenge.

It is a bit tough to provide documentation of a false statement, as you will see below.

When it is asserted that there are encouraging results when no such results exist, how do you prove that they do not?

I would urge a simple Google search, or if you have access, PubMed.

 



On Mar 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

[…and here we go.  I can’t believe I’m being forced to defend a man that I think is a terrible human being, but….  And to be clear, I’m making this point in defense of the advice to stop listening to, or believing in, anything that you’re seeing on the interwebs or via email lists or from your cousin’s boyfriend who knows this doctor, etc.  See if it’s coming from the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university – and not a doctor who happens to work, or is claimed to work, at such a hospital or university.]

 

For the avoidance of doubt, let’s go to the actual record and see what Trump said.  I’ve reproduced the transcript below of the press conference that falls into the timeline of the couple that drank caustic cleaning chemicals.  What does Trump actually say?  To summarize:

 

  1. Hydroxychloroquine is a common malaria drug, also used for arthritis.

Yes, but there are much better arthritis drugs

  1.  
  2. Because it’s an already approved drug, it can be used immediately, and we are seeing every encouraging early results.

Who and what was he referencing?

There are no papers to support this statement.

It works in the lab to kill virus, but not in mammals.

A soon to be released paper, in fact, shows it did NOT work for Corona.



  1.  
  2. Individual states and doctors will handle it, and we are quickly studying this drug.  We are going to try it in states, including NY, where Governor Cuomo wants to be on the front line.

Yes, there  are some trials.  It is not clear who “we” are?  Who is “quickly studying it?”
There is NO evidence of “encouraging early results."

  1.  
  2. Another promising drug is remdesivir, produced by Gilead, and that’s already approved so we can use that quickly.

Yes, there are some trials under way with results expected in 2-3 months.

Trials are underway, at the Brigham & MGH, in sick patients.


  1.  
  2. These are two promising drugs, already prescribed for other uses, and I think it could be a game changer, but maybe not, but based on what I see, could be a powerful game changer

The former has not been demonstrating promise, the later, yes.

  1.  
  2. For the FDA to act with the speed they have is incredible, and instead of waiting a year or two, but because these two drugs are approved for unrelated things, we can use them now. 

FDA has, in fact, relaxed all requirements so things are being fast tracked into clinical trials.   No requirements to demonstrate either safety or efficacy.

This is for trials only, not for actual use.

That must come later.

  1. We believe these therapeutics will be able to provide relief, and really hope that this is going to be, could be a tremendous breakthrough, and we’re also working towards a vaccine in the future.

Who is “we?”   Until the trials provide some evidence of both safety AND efficacy, they are  not approved for use.  

There are other therapies that have been successful in treating other viruses,  Research their potential use for corona is also in the pipeline, but, again, no actual data or accepted reports/papers.

Yes, vaccine work is a pace.

  1.  

 

Sara and Bob – first off, do you take exception to any of the things listed above that Trump actually said?  Sure, one can make the argument that Trump – or any politician – should not say anything and let only qualified scientists say something, but do you actually think any of the statements above are incorrect?

Yes,  see above.

 

As I noted, hydroxychloroquine is being studied right now; the initial hopes seem to have faded, but it is still being studied.  At the time this press conference happened, the anecdotal evidence was promising; that’s insufficient, of course, for any clinical recommendations.  But re-read the transcript.  Do you really think what Trump said was grossly misleading?  

Yes-see above.
The use of the term “anecdotal” by Fauci was to try and give Trump a graceful way to back away from again, playing fast and loose.

Where did Trump get this “info?”   Not from Fauci or the CDC or the FDA.

It turns out it was bandied about on Fox & Friends and Fox was Trump's source.



 

Secondly, consider a hypothetical.  Let’s say that hydroxychloroquine was incredibly effective at treating the symptoms of COVID-19, and that after Trump spoke, medical authorities chimed in and said, “the president is absolutely right, hydroxychloroquine works, and patients with COVID-19 will be prescribed hydroxychloroquine by their doctors starting today”.  If this were the situation, would you still be blaming Trump for the death of the man who purchased and consumed chloroquine phosphate without a doctor?  

A leader with the bully pulpit as powerful as the President of the United States needs to be VERY careful with his words.

Again, that should have been left to the CDC rep. to speak to.

 

OK As someone, a non-typist, who is notorious for misspelling and auto-correct that was incorrect and all kinds of errors, it is a bit risky to try to critique this “unusual” use /misuse of the English language. The NYT does a good job with a weekly “Fact Check” and CNN (I know, both “fake news”) did a recent compilation of misstatement of facts regarding Corona: 

 

 

But, I will try to weigh in on the lines where clear misstatements are made.  Much of what he does is by suggestion and it is hard to critique that.

  

Here's the relevant portion of the transcript, unedited except I’ve highlighted in bold the points I summarized above:

 

Now, a drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it, hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine, so chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.  Now, this is a common malaria drug. It’s also a drug used for strong arthritis.

Yes, it is a malaria drug.   Don’t know what “strong” arthritis is, so cannot comment.

Somebody who has pretty serious arthritis also uses this in a somewhat different form, but it is known as a malaria drug and it’s been around for a long time and it’s very powerful.

Yes, it’s been around, but not used very much anymore.

But the nice part is it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if it … If things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody.

Correct, unless you take too much.

When you go with a brand new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen.

That’s why you first do bench work and then advance to clinical trials

You have to see and you have to go long test.

Have no clue what “long test” is.  Testing takes time in order to prove a treatment is first safe, and then efficacious.

But this has been used in different forms, very powerful drug in different forms and it’s shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results

NO…it has shown NO results, to date.

, and we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately.

Yes

And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They’ve gone through the approval process, it’s been approved, and they did it.

Wrong, he just said the drug was already approved for other uses.

They took it down from many, many months to immediate.

It was already approved.

 

Donald Trump: (14:15)

So we’re going to be able to make that drug available by prescription   or states …

What?  “Or states….”  Have no clue what that means.


I spoke with governor Cuomo about it at great length last night and he wants to be right on … He wants to be first on the line.

Don’t know.  Have not read Cuomo’s response.

And so I think that’s a tremendous … There’s tremendous promise based on the results and other tests.

Wrong-he is now off the rails in talking about the approved drug for malaria and arthritis.

THERE ARE NO RESULTS THAT IT Is EFFICACIOUS FOR COVID 19!

There’s tremendous promise. And normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that and it was approved very, very quickly and it’s now approved by prescription.

What?  It’s already approved, but not proven to do anything.

 Individual states will handle it, they can handle it, doctors will handle it. And I think it’s going to be great.

Again, is he talking about the chloroquine?   

Why does he think its going to be great?   Based on what?

 

Then we’re quickly studying this drug and while we’re continuing to study it, but the studying is going to be also done in … As it’s given out to large groups of people, perhaps in New York and other places.

Who is giving it out?   To large groups of people?

 

Donald Trump: (15:18)

We’ll study it there. 

Where?

There are promising therapies produced by Gilead, and that’s remdesivir, remdesivir, and that’s a drug used for other purposes that’s been out,

Yes

Here is as good a report as any:



and it’s had very good results for other purposes, but it seems to have a very good result having to do with this virus,

No documentation, to date.

and that drug also has been approved or very close to approved,

It is approved for OTHER treatments, NOT Corona virus.

in that case, by the FDA, and I can’t tell you how much we appreciate what the FDA, these people are incredible patriots and the job that Stephen Hahn is doing, Dr. Hahn, who’s one of the most respected doctors in the country by the way, where we took him … I said, “You sure you want to do this?” Now we didn’t know that this was going to be in the playlist of what happened here. But he really has stepped up to the plate, wherever you are.

I cannot begin to comment on these bizarre turns of phrases…in his playlist….

 

Donald Trump: (16:19)

Where is he? You really have. I’d shake his hand, but I’m not supposed to do that. Get in a lot of trouble if I did that, but he’s been fantastic and I thank you doctor. He’s going to speak right after I’m finished. So Regeneron, again, is a company that’s done fantastically well as I understand with Ebola and some other things, great company and they’re looking at some very promising events also. 

Ye, Regeneron is working on anew approach, but again, NO results so there is no truth in the the phrase “very promising events."

So you have remdesivir and you have a hydroxychloroquine. So those are two that are out now, essentially approved for prescribed use.

He implies that these are now out for use.

This is incorrect.
These drugs are NOT approved for use with Corona virus…only for testing.

Chloroquine is approved for other uses, but not Corona.

Remdesivir is ONLY approved for testing, to date, and NOT approved for ANY other use.

So, both parts of this phrase are either incorrect or misleading.

And I think it’s going to be very exciting. I think it could be a game changer, and maybe not and maybe not,

Correct-maybe, maybe not!

but I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer. Very powerful. They’re very powerful.

Wrong, no evidence, no proof.  What does he see that the scientific community does not?

 

Donald Trump: (17:21)

So I want every American to know that we’re doing everything we can and these actions are important next steps.

What actions are important next steps?

I mean, for the FDA to act the way they acted with this kind of speed is an incredible thing. Normally they’d say, “Well, we can have it by next year or we can have it by in two years from now.” You understand, this is the way. Normally it’s like years and years and years, they had it immediately. 

They did NOT “have it immediately.  They relaxed all standard for testing these 2 known drugs for safety efficacy in Cornona virus.  It is for testing, and testing only.

Based on the fact that it’s been used for other things.

Only Chloroquine.   NOT Remdesvir.

Totally unrelated things. We believe these therapeutics and others under evaluation right now will be able to provide relief to many Americans.

Who is “we?”  And belief based on what?   There is no scientific  evidence, to date.

We really hope that’s going to be, this could be a tremendous breakthrough, tremendous breakthrough,

Yes we ALL really hope  for a breakthrough - 

and we will work toward a much needed vaccine in the future, as I said, and what we’re doing with the FDA

What are they doing with the FDA???? God help us!

is so exciting and so many other fields,

What other fields?  This is getting scary with each turn of the phrase.

so many things are happening.

Now, that’s the truth!

 

Vty,

 

--Dennis

 

There you have it.

I gave it my best shot.

Lord help us all!

Stay safe.

 

Sara

 

PS-remember, shop local…you don’t know what you’ve got ’til its gone.

 

 

From: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]> 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 1:00 PM
To: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Cc: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

No, that 'case', if true, is exactly why Trump's statement was reckless and irresponsible.  He should not be making comments about specific treatments that are in trial for the exact reason that people may take them out of context.

 

He's the president of the United States - he shouldn't be absolved by the I'm not responsible for what people may do with the stuff I sayexcuse.  Every president before him has been held to a much higher standard - why do we keep lowering the bar for him?

 

-Bob

 

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:49 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dennis,

My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.

 

We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.

Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.

 

I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.

 

Regards,

Sara

 

 

 

 




On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Sara wrote:

 

>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.

 

What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.

 

To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.

 

But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”

 

--Dennis

 

 

From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

Dennis is absolutely correct.

 

While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.

 

Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.

They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.

As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.

And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.

 

So, sit tight.

As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.

Production is ramping up.

 

Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).

Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.

 

Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.

Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.

 

Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.

One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.

And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.

 

Leave it to the known med. professionals.

Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.

 

Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.

 

Sit tight.

 

Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!

 

Namaste

 Sara

 

 

 

On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

To all:

 

Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 

 

It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]

 

It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.

 

An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

 

As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.

 

As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.

 

 

 

Stay well, everyone.

 

--Dennis

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

 

 

Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.

 

Mary Rosenfeld

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

samattes
Interesting -note that Fox News picked up one report and passed it to Trump.
He, apparently, did not run the notion past his own CDC expert, Fauci.
Fauci was more than a little cautious in his responses.
And, look at the French “study”-10 patients …really?
Read the comments in the TechCrunch report.

Botton line, Trump needs to defer to his own, in-house recognized (and respected) expert, Dr. Fauci.
Word of caution for our President-Loose lips soak ships-words matter and in these times of high anxiety people will take your words and try to act on them.

Here is an interesting update, for the files.


Now, let’s go back to picking movies for “Movie Night eats  from REAL.”

Sara


On Mar 26, 2020, at 5:52 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara wrote (emphasis added)
 
>It is a bit tough to provide documentation of a false statement, as you will see below.
>When it is asserted that there are encouraging results when no such results exist, how do you prove that they do not?  I would urge a simple Google search, or if you have access, PubMed.  
>Who and what was he referencing?  There are no papers to support this statement.  It works in the lab to kill virus, but not in mammals.  A soon to be released paper, in fact, shows it did NOT work for Corona.
>Yes, there  are some trials.  It is not clear who “we” are?  Who is “quickly studying it?”  There is NO evidence of “encouraging early results."
 
Of course *I* did do a google search.  Before I posted about Hydroxychloroquine .  There was indeed lots of widespread, publicly reported hope about the potential efficacy of this drug.  
 
Among the dozens if not hundreds of examples that were published on or before Trump made his comments during a press conference on March 19:
  1. “Old malaria drug hydroxychloroquine may help cure coronavirus: study”  https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/old-malaria-drug-hydroxychloroquine-may-help-cure-coronavirus-study/
  2. “Malaria drug sees promising signs as future coronavirus treatment” https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/malaria-drug-sees-promising-signs-as-future-coronavirus-treatment
  3. “US testing two generic drugs as possible coronavirus treatments” https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/488410-us-testing-two-generic-drugs-as-possible-coronavirus
  4. “French study finds anti-malarial and antibiotic combo could reduce COVID-19 duration” https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/19/french-study-finds-anti-malarial-and-antibiotic-combo-could-reduce-covid-19-duration/
  5. “COVID-19: Could Hydroxychloroquine Really Be An Answer?”  https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927033
Thus, I don’t know why you would argue that no encouraging results exist?  Plenty of proof that initial (but not conclusive) studies offered hope.  And, yes, as I acknowledged in my prior postings, subsequent research has diminished that hope (though studies are still ongoing).  Remember, Trump was speaking on March 19, a week ago, when the medical community did have hope that Hydroxychloroquine would prove to be effective.
 
Again, Sara, I ask you – what specifically do you allege was a false statement at the time he made it?   Your insertions below criticize Trump’s speaking manner (which is terrible), or his general statements about FDA approval processes (yeah, he’s certainly not expert in that), and picks nits that aren’t material (um, okay, Hydroxychloroquine is not the best drug for treatment of arthritis, but . . . who said that it’s the best drug for that?).  
 
The issue that you raised was that Trump made false statements which led to that guy to consume aquarium cleaner.  Trump is a congenital liar!  You can tell he’s lying by seeing if his lips are moving!  I wouldn’t trust him on most anything!  BUT he didn’t make any false statements during this press conference that would lead any reasonable, rational person to think that it’d be safe to consume aquarium cleaner to treat COVID-19.
 
Sara wrote:
 
>This is quite the challenge - on the one hand, I am admonished to withhold commentary as I am not with  the CDC, WHO or a teaching hospital or university…just married to one works in one-teaching hospital and university.  And, it is suggested that a doctor that happens to work at one of the aforementioned is not to be listened to either.  (Well, my husband says I never listen to him anyway)  What if they have noteworthy appointments, are chairs of divisions, are published and sit on multiple review committees?  I would suggest that there are many recognized experts, in the appropriate fields, worth heeding.
 
To clarify, I’m not saying not to believe in public statements from doctors working in the actual field, whether respiratory, epidemiology, virology, etc.  I was referring to the emails that get sent around – including on this mailing list – referencing things like, “the advice below came from a Stanford doctor!  It’s tips on how to self-diagnose by facing north and coughing!”  There is all the difference in the world between a doctor speaking publicly (via a release or a web site or interview with credible news media), versus something being circulated via email or social media 
 
In conclusion, Sara, your assertions that Trump made material false statements all seem to center around the fact that, as of today (3/26), it appears that Hydroxychloroquine does not offer the same hope that it had a week ago, when Trump spoke on this (3/19).  Thus, those statements would fairly be characterized as “expressing hope that this drug would turn out to be effective, but, alas, seems not to be.”  Rather than FALSE at the time he made them.
 
Anyway, enough diversion.  I need to shower to wash this disgust off me from having to spend time defending a loathsome human being.  But truth should be defended when needed.
 
--Dennis
 
 
 
From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 5:23 PM
To: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Cc: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
Dennis,
This is quite the challenge - on the one hand, I am admonished to withhold commentary as I am not with  the CDC, WHO or a teaching hospital or university…just married to one works in one-teaching hospital and university.
And, it is suggested that a doctor that happens to work at one of the aforementioned is not to be listened to either.
(Well, my husband says I never listen to him anyway)
What if they have noteworthy appointments, are chairs of divisions, are published and sit on multiple review committees?
I would suggest that there are many recognized experts, in the appropriate fields, worth heeding.
 
I would be happy to defer to the CDC/Fauci or our state DPH and even our local Board of Health.
They are all designated authorities.
 
 Donald Trump and I are not.
 
But given that you have thrown down the gauntlet, I will have some fun attempting to work through the transcript you have printed below.
The tortured use of the English language provides an extra challenge…he clearly did not have L/S’s  Susan Frommer for Freshman English.
 
Threaded throughout  is another challenge.
It is a bit tough to provide documentation of a false statement, as you will see below.
When it is asserted that there are encouraging results when no such results exist, how do you prove that they do not?
I would urge a simple Google search, or if you have access, PubMed.
 


On Mar 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
[…and here we go.  I can’t believe I’m being forced to defend a man that I think is a terrible human being, but….  And to be clear, I’m making this point in defense of the advice to stop listening to, or believing in, anything that you’re seeing on the interwebs or via email lists or from your cousin’s boyfriend who knows this doctor, etc.  See if it’s coming from the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university – and not a doctor who happens to work, or is claimed to work, at such a hospital or university.]
 
For the avoidance of doubt, let’s go to the actual record and see what Trump said.  I’ve reproduced the transcript below of the press conference that falls into the timeline of the couple that drank caustic cleaning chemicals.  What does Trump actually say?  To summarize:
 
  1. Hydroxychloroquine is a common malaria drug, also used for arthritis.
Yes, but there are much better arthritis drugs

  1.  
  2. Because it’s an already approved drug, it can be used immediately, and we are seeing every encouraging early results.
Who and what was he referencing?
There are no papers to support this statement.
It works in the lab to kill virus, but not in mammals.
A soon to be released paper, in fact, shows it did NOT work for Corona.


  1.  
  2. Individual states and doctors will handle it, and we are quickly studying this drug.  We are going to try it in states, including NY, where Governor Cuomo wants to be on the front line.
Yes, there  are some trials.  It is not clear who “we” are?  Who is “quickly studying it?”
There is NO evidence of “encouraging early results."

  1.  
  2. Another promising drug is remdesivir, produced by Gilead, and that’s already approved so we can use that quickly.
Yes, there are some trials under way with results expected in 2-3 months.
Trials are underway, at the Brigham & MGH, in sick patients.


  1.  
  2. These are two promising drugs, already prescribed for other uses, and I think it could be a game changer, but maybe not, but based on what I see, could be a powerful game changer
The former has not been demonstrating promise, the later, yes.

  1.  
  2. For the FDA to act with the speed they have is incredible, and instead of waiting a year or two, but because these two drugs are approved for unrelated things, we can use them now. 
FDA has, in fact, relaxed all requirements so things are being fast tracked into clinical trials.   No requirements to demonstrate either safety or efficacy.
This is for trials only, not for actual use.
That must come later.

  1. We believe these therapeutics will be able to provide relief, and really hope that this is going to be, could be a tremendous breakthrough, and we’re also working towards a vaccine in the future.
Who is “we?”   Until the trials provide some evidence of both safety AND efficacy, they are  not approved for use.  
There are other therapies that have been successful in treating other viruses,  Research their potential use for corona is also in the pipeline, but, again, no actual data or accepted reports/papers.
Yes, vaccine work is a pace.

  1.  
 
Sara and Bob – first off, do you take exception to any of the things listed above that Trump actually said?  Sure, one can make the argument that Trump – or any politician – should not say anything and let only qualified scientists say something, but do you actually think any of the statements above are incorrect?
Yes,  see above.

 
As I noted, hydroxychloroquine is being studied right now; the initial hopes seem to have faded, but it is still being studied.  At the time this press conference happened, the anecdotal evidence was promising; that’s insufficient, of course, for any clinical recommendations.  But re-read the transcript.  Do you really think what Trump said was grossly misleading?  
Yes-see above.
The use of the term “anecdotal” by Fauci was to try and give Trump a graceful way to back away from again, playing fast and loose.
Where did Trump get this “info?”   Not from Fauci or the CDC or the FDA.
It turns out it was bandied about on Fox & Friends and Fox was Trump's source.


 
Secondly, consider a hypothetical.  Let’s say that hydroxychloroquine was incredibly effective at treating the symptoms of COVID-19, and that after Trump spoke, medical authorities chimed in and said, “the president is absolutely right, hydroxychloroquine works, and patients with COVID-19 will be prescribed hydroxychloroquine by their doctors starting today”.  If this were the situation, would you still be blaming Trump for the death of the man who purchased and consumed chloroquine phosphate without a doctor?  
A leader with the bully pulpit as powerful as the President of the United States needs to be VERY careful with his words.
Again, that should have been left to the CDC rep. to speak to.

 
OK As someone, a non-typist, who is notorious for misspelling and auto-correct that was incorrect and all kinds of errors, it is a bit risky to try to critique this “unusual” use /misuse of the English language. The NYT does a good job with a weekly “Fact Check” and CNN (I know, both “fake news”) did a recent compilation of misstatement of facts regarding Corona: 
 
 
But, I will try to weigh in on the lines where clear misstatements are made.  Much of what he does is by suggestion and it is hard to critique that.

  
Here's the relevant portion of the transcript, unedited except I’ve highlighted in bold the points I summarized above:
 
Now, a drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it, hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine, so chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.  Now, this is a common malaria drug. It’s also a drug used for strong arthritis. 
Yes, it is a malaria drug.   Don’t know what “strong” arthritis is, so cannot comment.

Somebody who has pretty serious arthritis also uses this in a somewhat different form, but it is known as a malaria drug and it’s been around for a long time and it’s very powerful. 
Yes, it’s been around, but not used very much anymore.

But the nice part is it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if it … If things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody.
Correct, unless you take too much.

When you go with a brand new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen. 
That’s why you first do bench work and then advance to clinical trials

You have to see and you have to go long test. 
Have no clue what “long test” is.  Testing takes time in order to prove a treatment is first safe, and then efficacious.

But this has been used in different forms, very powerful drug in different forms and it’s shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results
NO…it has shown NO results, to date.

, and we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. 
Yes

And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They’ve gone through the approval process, it’s been approved, and they did it. 
Wrong, he just said the drug was already approved for other uses.

They took it down from many, many months to immediate.
It was already approved.

 
Donald Trump: (14:15)
So we’re going to be able to make that drug available by prescription   or states … 
What?  “Or states….”  Have no clue what that means.


I spoke with governor Cuomo about it at great length last night and he wants to be right on … He wants to be first on the line.
Don’t know.  Have not read Cuomo’s response.

And so I think that’s a tremendous … There’s tremendous promise based on the results and other tests. 
Wrong-he is now off the rails in talking about the approved drug for malaria and arthritis.
THERE ARE NO RESULTS THAT IT Is EFFICACIOUS FOR COVID 19!

There’s tremendous promise. And normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that and it was approved very, very quickly and it’s now approved by prescription.
What?  It’s already approved, but not proven to do anything.

 Individual states will handle it, they can handle it, doctors will handle it. And I think it’s going to be great. 
Again, is he talking about the chloroquine?   
Why does he think its going to be great?   Based on what?
 
Then we’re quickly studying this drug and while we’re continuing to study it, but the studying is going to be also done in … As it’s given out to large groups of people, perhaps in New York and other places.
Who is giving it out?   To large groups of people?
 
Donald Trump: (15:18)
We’ll study it there. 
Where?

There are promising therapies produced by Gilead, and that’s remdesivir, remdesivir, and that’s a drug used for other purposes that’s been out, 
Yes
Here is as good a report as any:


and it’s had very good results for other purposes, but it seems to have a very good result having to do with this virus, 
No documentation, to date.
and that drug also has been approved or very close to approved, 
It is approved for OTHER treatments, NOT Corona virus.

in that case, by the FDA, and I can’t tell you how much we appreciate what the FDA, these people are incredible patriots and the job that Stephen Hahn is doing, Dr. Hahn, who’s one of the most respected doctors in the country by the way, where we took him … I said, “You sure you want to do this?” Now we didn’t know that this was going to be in the playlist of what happened here. But he really has stepped up to the plate, wherever you are.
I cannot begin to comment on these bizarre turns of phrases…in his playlist….

 
Donald Trump: (16:19)
Where is he? You really have. I’d shake his hand, but I’m not supposed to do that. Get in a lot of trouble if I did that, but he’s been fantastic and I thank you doctor. He’s going to speak right after I’m finished. So Regeneron, again, is a company that’s done fantastically well as I understand with Ebola and some other things, great company and they’re looking at some very promising events also. 
Ye, Regeneron is working on anew approach, but again, NO results so there is no truth in the the phrase “very promising events."

So you have remdesivir and you have a hydroxychloroquine. So those are two that are out now, essentially approved for prescribed use. 
He implies that these are now out for use.
This is incorrect.
These drugs are NOT approved for use with Corona virus…only for testing.
Chloroquine is approved for other uses, but not Corona.
Remdesivir is ONLY approved for testing, to date, and NOT approved for ANY other use.
So, both parts of this phrase are either incorrect or misleading.

And I think it’s going to be very exciting. I think it could be a game changer, and maybe not and maybe not, 
Correct-maybe, maybe not!

but I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer. Very powerful. They’re very powerful.
Wrong, no evidence, no proof.  What does he see that the scientific community does not?

 
Donald Trump: (17:21)
So I want every American to know that we’re doing everything we can and these actions are important next steps.
What actions are important next steps?

I mean, for the FDA to act the way they acted with this kind of speed is an incredible thing. Normally they’d say, “Well, we can have it by next year or we can have it by in two years from now.” You understand, this is the way. Normally it’s like years and years and years, they had it immediately. 
They did NOT “have it immediately.  They relaxed all standard for testing these 2 known drugs for safety efficacy in Cornona virus.  It is for testing, and testing only.

Based on the fact that it’s been used for other things. 
Only Chloroquine.   NOT Remdesvir.

Totally unrelated things. We believe these therapeutics and others under evaluation right now will be able to provide relief to many Americans.
Who is “we?”  And belief based on what?   There is no scientific  evidence, to date.

We really hope that’s going to be, this could be a tremendous breakthrough, tremendous breakthrough,
Yes we ALL really hope  for a breakthrough - 

and we will work toward a much needed vaccine in the future, as I said, and what we’re doing with the FDA 
What are they doing with the FDA???? God help us!

is so exciting and so many other fields, 
What other fields?  This is getting scary with each turn of the phrase.

so many things are happening.
Now, that’s the truth!

 
Vty,
 
--Dennis
 
There you have it.
I gave it my best shot.
Lord help us all!
Stay safe.
 
Sara
 
PS-remember, shop local…you don’t know what you’ve got ’til its gone.

 
 
From: Bob Kupperstein <[hidden email]> 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 1:00 PM
To: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]>
Cc: Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>; Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
No, that 'case', if true, is exactly why Trump's statement was reckless and irresponsible.  He should not be making comments about specific treatments that are in trial for the exact reason that people may take them out of context.
 
He's the president of the United States - he shouldn't be absolved by the I'm not responsible for what people may do with the stuff I sayexcuse.  Every president before him has been held to a much higher standard - why do we keep lowering the bar for him?
 
-Bob
 
On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:49 PM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dennis,
My points that listening to anyone except Dr. Fauci and other known experts can have dangerous outcomes, esp. when someone holds the highest office in the land.
 
We should ALL step aside and defer to the true experts in the field, and that include asking the President to step aside when it comes to making ANY stamens about medical tests or treatments.
Let him discuss using his powers to distribute medical supplies and assist the states in their own efforts, but PLEASE leave discussion of anything health related to others with true expertise.
 
I well understand we are all looking for signs of hope, but most of all, we are seeking facts and assurances that those who are talking to us have a full grasp of them.
 
Regards,
Sara
 
 
 
 



On Mar 26, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Sara wrote:
 
>One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.  And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
To clarify, the elderly man died and his wife is in critical condition after they consumed . . . aquarium cleaner.  Yes, they drank a caustic cleaning chemical, apparently because it contained chloroquine phosphate.
 
What did the president actually discuss in a press conference with Dr Anthony Fauci?  Hydroxychloroquine which is an actual drug, and not a caustic cleaning chemical.  Hydroxychloroquine is undergoing trials right now to see if it is effective in helping to reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 – not a cure; alas, the evidence to date is anecdotal and at least one preliminary study shows no real efficacy.  Still, further research is being done it.
 
To the point:  so many people are so consumed with their hatred for Trump (much of which, just IMHO, is deserved, but not all), that they’re going to blame him for touting an actual drug that actual doctors in actual hospitals are running actual trials on, for the death of a desperate but deluded man, who chose to drink a caustic cleaning chemical.  Really?  There is so much for which Trump can and should be properly brought to account – as well as both Republican AND Democratic members of Congress, and Republican and Democratic governors, if one really wants to spend their time on politics.
 
But, come on, the president in a national news conference is trying to share some potential good news with a desperate nation, and he’s responsible for one guy drinking aquarium cleaner?  That’s like, “hey, I saw on TV that omeprazole magnesium is good for treating heartburn, and the road salt in my garage is made from magnesium chloride, so I can just eat a few scoops of that and voila!”
 
--Dennis
 
 
From: Sara Mattes <[hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Mary Rosenfeld <[hidden email]>
Cc: Joanna Owen Schmergel via Lincoln <[hidden email]>; Dennis Liu <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
Dennis is absolutely correct.
 
While this may be a “report” it is not necessarily verified.
 
Reports and papers from China are being produced in record numbers.
They are also being fast-tracked for review by the NEJM, Lancet and a few other top journals.
As soon as there is any veracity to the trials/reports, they are forwarded for publication.
And, you can rest assured that outlets like CNN will be all over them.
 
So, sit tight.
As you can read and see, new forms of testing are being developed and released daily.
Production is ramping up.
 
Treatments are in clinical trials right here in Boston (Brigham & MGH).
Vaccines have also now entered early stages of clinical trials.
 
Tests have a shorter, much shorter turn around time.
Treatments and vaccines are many, many, many months off.
 
Trying anything else, on your won, is risky.
One treatment touted by the President has caused a rush on a med. that is proven and critical for some diseases, but not Corona.
And, one person, trying to self-administer the President’s claimed treatment, has died.
 
Leave it to the known med. professionals.
Dr. Fauci at the CDC is rock solid.
 
Andy Payne has given you all the links (in an earlier post today)  to the most reliable and up to date info out there.
 
Sit tight.
 
Go for a walk-it is a beautiful day and we are blessed to be able to walk out the door and practice safe social distancing with little effort!
 
Namaste
 Sara
 
 

 

On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
This is a direct report from a Chinese doctor who is head of his medical unit.   Intravenous Vitamin C is saving lives in China.  Period.
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 11:11:50 AM EDT, Dennis Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
 
To all:
 
Please, please, I implore you, be careful with circulating false rumors about treatments or cures or at-home ways to self-test.  Such misinformation may cause people to injure or even kill themselves, based on erroneous information or interpretation. 
 
It's one thing if the touted treatment is benign in nature -- trying a food supplement because it "boosts your immune system" or using a crystal to "focus natural energy" may be good, in that the placebo effect is real.  Or even if the person just find comfort by taking action, no matter if there is no real underlying physical reaction.  HOWEVER, there are things being tried that can be actively dangerous.  And things being tried IN LIEU of actual, real, proven, medicine.  [for example, there is no proof that there are any miracle foods or herbs or home remedies that boost the immune system; just live a healthy lifestyle, maintain a healthy weight, get enough sleep, avoid stress and eat a sensible diet, not eat tons of garlic or peppers or turmeric or any of the BS supplements in "health" stores":  https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system ]
 
It dismays me to see a lot of misleading information being circulated on this email list, with lots of understandably anxious readers, particularly those that aren't fluent with using Google to validate the veracity of what's being passed around.
 
An excellent quote that I hope everyone keeps in mind, from Tim Minchin:  "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."
 
As others have suggested, do always check the source of things before you forward to see if it's been recommended by the CDC, the WHO, a teaching hospital or university.  And keep a healthy sense of skepticism; if there really was major progress being made with X, then surely the CDC would be discussing it publicly.
 
As for using intravenous vitamin C to "cure" COVID-19 in China, while at least one Chinese researcher is running a trial on it, as of now, not only is it not a cure, there's no proof of any efficacy, and more than a little risk too.
 
 
 
Stay well, everyone.
 
--Dennis
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mary Rosenfeld via Lincoln
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C
 
 
Heard NY hospitals now using this treatment too.
 
Mary Rosenfeld
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Top COVID-19 aspirants chloroquine, AbbVie's Kaletra and a flu drug disappoint in clinical tests FiercePharma.pdf (1M) Download Attachment
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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Kathryn Anagnostakis
Dennis's point has nothing to do with the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine.  

Trump did not, at any point, encourage people to drink aquarium cleaner as a way of getting some part of the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine.  That is the point.  Trump simply doesn't mention aquarium cleaner at all, unless I missed it in that transcript ;)

I also agree that Trump should stop talking about this at all since he is not helpful.  But Dennis is right about the above. 

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Re: [LincolnTalk] No, vitamin C is not a cure | RE: Chinese curing Covid 19 with intravenous Vite C

Bijoy Misra
A friend of mine in Cambridge has been admitted to Brigham after complaining chest congestion.
He is under observation.  I hear that Hydroxychloroquine is the medicine of choice if he
checks positive.

On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 8:03 AM Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dennis's point has nothing to do with the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine.  

Trump did not, at any point, encourage people to drink aquarium cleaner as a way of getting some part of the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine.  That is the point.  Trump simply doesn't mention aquarium cleaner at all, unless I missed it in that transcript ;)

I also agree that Trump should stop talking about this at all since he is not helpful.  But Dennis is right about the above. 
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