[LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

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[LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Kathryn Anagnostakis
sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Margaret Olson
Non-medical masks are unarguably inferior and I sympathize with any medical personnel forced to use anything other than a medical mask. I would be very surprised if anyone was claiming otherwise. 

That being said, "cloth mask" is not a useful description; afterall medical masks are *also* made from a textile. Were the masks cotton or something else? Knit or woven? One layer or two? What weave?
One of the reasons I am making masks as part of "Masks for Massachusetts" is that there is a pattern and it was tested. There are many studies on this topic note, and how you make the mask and what you make it out of matter. 

If there are no medical masks then let's make the best masks we can. A mask that blocks 50% of particles is better than nothing, but obviously not what our nurses and doctors deserve and they are right to be angry.

My offhand guess is that the absorbent materials easily obtained by home sewers capture moisture and the cotton masks should probably be changed very frequently. I have not found a study on that topic, but wearing the same cotton mask for an entire shift doesn't strike this fabric fanatic as likely the way to maximize efficacy.

Margaret





On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:25 AM Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:
sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)
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[LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Andrew Payne
In reply to this post by Kathryn Anagnostakis
Kathryn wrote:

sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”

The masks in the cited study are " cloth masks (two layer, made of cotton) commonly used in Vietnamese hospitals."   I know the Lahey effort is using layers of a specific fabric (denim?) of tightly woven cotton.  I do believe that fabrics have very different filtering abilities. 

Second, I understand the cloth masks are intended for second-line workers so that the scarce N95 masks can be used with the front-line folks.

Third, the cloth masks are also used as covers for other medical masks, to help improve their lifetime.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)

I'm sorry to let you down!  There may be many LT commenters, but there's only one Dennis. :)

One unmasked resident's view,

-andy

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Lincoln mailing list
In reply to this post by Kathryn Anagnostakis
There are two objectives to the mask:
1-preventing or at least minimizing the touching of one’s mouth/nose/eyes
2-filtering out/in bad pathogens

The cloth mask certainly is just as effective at #1 as any mask. The nurse is correctly concerned about #2.  

Those of us sheltered in place and « shopping » only when absolutely needed (less than once/week?!) should care as much about the #1 reason as the #2 since this limits exposure from touching surfaces before we can thoroughly wash hands. Health care providers care most about #2 (as they should).

Just saying...let’s keep this all in perspective. 

Lisa Putukian

Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:

sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Lincoln mailing list
image1.jpeg

Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:59 AM, Lisa Putukian via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are two objectives to the mask:
1-preventing or at least minimizing the touching of one’s mouth/nose/eyes
2-filtering out/in bad pathogens

The cloth mask certainly is just as effective at #1 as any mask. The nurse is correctly concerned about #2.  

Those of us sheltered in place and « shopping » only when absolutely needed (less than once/week?!) should care as much about the #1 reason as the #2 since this limits exposure from touching surfaces before we can thoroughly wash hands. Health care providers care most about #2 (as they should).

Just saying...let’s keep this all in perspective. 

Lisa Putukian

Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:

sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

samattes
In reply to this post by Andrew Payne
Again, I believe this is a matter for our Board of Health to review and comment.

We have a lot of experts in this town, and many very adept at internet investigation, but they are not necessarily embedded in the medical and public health arena.
Perhaps the BoH/BoS could create a virtual task force ( Andy can facilitate the Zoom conferences) of those who are actual experts in medicine, bio research and public health ( yes, they are here, living in Lincoln) to advise us so that we are not treading on thin and dangerous ice as to what works and what doesn’t.

In the meantime, let opinions and online research flow...and, I will continue to deploy my ( locally made)  cloth mask, leaving the more traditional kind for those on the frontlines.

As Margaret says, for my purposes, 47% is better than 0!

Sara

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:58 AM, Andrew Payne <[hidden email]> wrote:

Kathryn wrote:

sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”

The masks in the cited study are " cloth masks (two layer, made of cotton) commonly used in Vietnamese hospitals."   I know the Lahey effort is using layers of a specific fabric (denim?) of tightly woven cotton.  I do believe that fabrics have very different filtering abilities. 

Second, I understand the cloth masks are intended for second-line workers so that the scarce N95 masks can be used with the front-line folks.

Third, the cloth masks are also used as covers for other medical masks, to help improve their lifetime.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)

I'm sorry to let you down!  There may be many LT commenters, but there's only one Dennis. :)

One unmasked resident's view,

-andy
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

samattes
In reply to this post by Lincoln mailing list
❤️👏🏻❤️

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Lisa Putukian via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:


<image1.jpeg>


Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:59 AM, Lisa Putukian via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are two objectives to the mask:
1-preventing or at least minimizing the touching of one’s mouth/nose/eyes
2-filtering out/in bad pathogens

The cloth mask certainly is just as effective at #1 as any mask. The nurse is correctly concerned about #2.  

Those of us sheltered in place and « shopping » only when absolutely needed (less than once/week?!) should care as much about the #1 reason as the #2 since this limits exposure from touching surfaces before we can thoroughly wash hands. Health care providers care most about #2 (as they should).

Just saying...let’s keep this all in perspective. 

Lisa Putukian

Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:

sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Jamie Faulkner
While it’s true that medical masks are inherently better than their homemade alternatives, there are opportunities for people to work WITH hospitals to make masks, getting appropriate fabric and undergoing testing before being approved for hospital use.

One great organization that’s doing this is Masks for Massachusetts, started by the Rosenblatt family right here in Lincoln. They’ve recruited thousands of people to see masks, but they’re working directly with hospital staff to make sure everything is up to code. Here’s a Boston globe article about their project: 

I think this is a great step to solve two problems, making sure masks are safe, and giving us “non essentials” a way to help and feel useful in this tough time. 

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:29 AM Sara Mattes <[hidden email]> wrote:
❤️👏🏻❤️

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Lisa Putukian via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:


<image1.jpeg>


Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:59 AM, Lisa Putukian via Lincoln <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are two objectives to the mask:
1-preventing or at least minimizing the touching of one’s mouth/nose/eyes
2-filtering out/in bad pathogens

The cloth mask certainly is just as effective at #1 as any mask. The nurse is correctly concerned about #2.  

Those of us sheltered in place and « shopping » only when absolutely needed (less than once/week?!) should care as much about the #1 reason as the #2 since this limits exposure from touching surfaces before we can thoroughly wash hands. Health care providers care most about #2 (as they should).

Just saying...let’s keep this all in perspective. 

Lisa Putukian

Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse typos!

On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:

sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Andrew Payne
In reply to this post by samattes

Sara M. wrote:

Again, I believe this is a matter for our Board of Health to review and comment.

I believe our Board of Health should focus on issues local to and specific to Lincoln.  I do not believe it's a good use of limited resources to try and replicate communication, information, analysis, and data that's already available at the state, federal, and international level:




For example, the state issued specific guidance yesterday about pharmacies and grocery stores:  https://www.mass.gov/doc/march-25-2020-pharmacy-grocery-order  Unless there is Something Special about Donelan's, our Board of Health can simply implement the state guidance.  

Masks, grocery stores, social distancing, senior-only shopping hours -- they all work the same here in Lincoln as they do in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.  (well, in the ways that matter here, but I digress)

Perhaps the BoH/BoS could create a virtual task force

Lincoln-talk, like most social media platforms, is unfiltered, for better or worse.  We all have our own anxieties, fears, neuroses, egos, and reactions.  Everyone here recognizes that a world-class epidemiologist and some dude in his mom's basement (not that there's anything wrong with that) get the same billing.  And it's always been buyer-beware:  if you're getting your medical advice from LT, w/o any outside validation, I'm not quite sure what to say.

I'm grateful that we're not using extremely limited town resources and volunteers to try and "nanny" the discussions here.  It takes an enormous amount of time to research, validate and reply to various claims and assertions posted by residents.  But there's nothing to prevent a group of residents from organizing a qualified group to (say) write and maintain a "frequently asked questions" document.  If someone feels strongly, perhaps they could direct their energies to organizing such an effort.

I am far from an expert, but things are evolving so rapidly that we're sometimes all learning together, both experts and non-experts.  Let's consider masks.  From the CDC:

CDC does not recommend the routine use of respirators outside of workplace settings (in the community). Most often, spread of respiratory viruses from person-to-person happens among close contacts (within 6 feet). 


Given that respirators are a limited resource, it's a very sensible strategic recommendation:  if people are using a lot of respirators/masks in low-risk situations, then we don't have them for front-line health care workers in high-exposure situations.  But that's not the same as saying that masks don't work; it's saying:  save the best equipment for the people that need it the most.

Finally, as others have noted, "effectiveness" is a relative concept, not an absolute one.  A mask is like a seatbelt:  it doesn't guarantee you won't get hurt, but it improves your chances.  And like lap belts vs shoulder belts:  some provide better protection than others, and something may be better than nothing.  

Along these lines, experts are trying to figure out the role public mask use plays in countries (Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore) that are seeing a slower case ramp.  Data:  https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest   For example:  

WHO recommends against wearing masks in community settings because of lack of evidence. However, absence of evidence of effectiveness should not be equated to evidence of ineffectiveness, especially when facing a novel situation with limited alternative options. It has long been recommended that for respiratory infections like influenza, affected patients should wear masks to limit droplet spread. If everyone puts on a mask in public places, it would help to remove stigmatisation that has hitherto discouraged masking of symptomatic patients in many places. Furthermore, transmission from asymptomatic infected individuals has been documented for COVID-19, and viral load is particularly high at early disease stage.,  Masking, as a public health intervention, would probably intercept the transmission link and prevent these apparently healthy infectious sources.


One unmasked resident's view,

-andy

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

samattes
Andy, et al
It simply made sense to me that those elected to address public health matters be a visible face to list the sources for accurate information rather than us.

A simple post of sources of up to date resources and websites was what I had in mind.

But, it seems, you are able to wear that hat, among many others.

Thanks for the compilation of sources.

Keep us posted.

Sara

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2020, at 7:20 AM, Andrew Payne <[hidden email]> wrote:



Sara M. wrote:

Again, I believe this is a matter for our Board of Health to review and comment.

I believe our Board of Health should focus on issues local to and specific to Lincoln.  I do not believe it's a good use of limited resources to try and replicate communication, information, analysis, and data that's already available at the state, federal, and international level:




For example, the state issued specific guidance yesterday about pharmacies and grocery stores:  https://www.mass.gov/doc/march-25-2020-pharmacy-grocery-order  Unless there is Something Special about Donelan's, our Board of Health can simply implement the state guidance.  

Masks, grocery stores, social distancing, senior-only shopping hours -- they all work the same here in Lincoln as they do in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.  (well, in the ways that matter here, but I digress)

Perhaps the BoH/BoS could create a virtual task force

Lincoln-talk, like most social media platforms, is unfiltered, for better or worse.  We all have our own anxieties, fears, neuroses, egos, and reactions.  Everyone here recognizes that a world-class epidemiologist and some dude in his mom's basement (not that there's anything wrong with that) get the same billing.  And it's always been buyer-beware:  if you're getting your medical advice from LT, w/o any outside validation, I'm not quite sure what to say.

I'm grateful that we're not using extremely limited town resources and volunteers to try and "nanny" the discussions here.  It takes an enormous amount of time to research, validate and reply to various claims and assertions posted by residents.  But there's nothing to prevent a group of residents from organizing a qualified group to (say) write and maintain a "frequently asked questions" document.  If someone feels strongly, perhaps they could direct their energies to organizing such an effort.

I am far from an expert, but things are evolving so rapidly that we're sometimes all learning together, both experts and non-experts.  Let's consider masks.  From the CDC:

CDC does not recommend the routine use of respirators outside of workplace settings (in the community). Most often, spread of respiratory viruses from person-to-person happens among close contacts (within 6 feet). 


Given that respirators are a limited resource, it's a very sensible strategic recommendation:  if people are using a lot of respirators/masks in low-risk situations, then we don't have them for front-line health care workers in high-exposure situations.  But that's not the same as saying that masks don't work; it's saying:  save the best equipment for the people that need it the most.

Finally, as others have noted, "effectiveness" is a relative concept, not an absolute one.  A mask is like a seatbelt:  it doesn't guarantee you won't get hurt, but it improves your chances.  And like lap belts vs shoulder belts:  some provide better protection than others, and something may be better than nothing.  

Along these lines, experts are trying to figure out the role public mask use plays in countries (Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore) that are seeing a slower case ramp.  Data:  https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest   For example:  

WHO recommends against wearing masks in community settings because of lack of evidence. However, absence of evidence of effectiveness should not be equated to evidence of ineffectiveness, especially when facing a novel situation with limited alternative options. It has long been recommended that for respiratory infections like influenza, affected patients should wear masks to limit droplet spread. If everyone puts on a mask in public places, it would help to remove stigmatisation that has hitherto discouraged masking of symptomatic patients in many places. Furthermore, transmission from asymptomatic infected individuals has been documented for COVID-19, and viral load is particularly high at early disease stage.,  Masking, as a public health intervention, would probably intercept the transmission link and prevent these apparently healthy infectious sources.


One unmasked resident's view,

-andy

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Rich Rosenbaum
In reply to this post by Andrew Payne
Regarding the very visible use of face masks in parts of Asia: even in 'normal' times it is very common to see a few people in a Tokyo rush hour crowd wearing face masks (those that might have a mild cold). It might have something to do with a cultural bias against being absent at work.

But in this case it is a situation where those people will be in close contact with others for several hours (if you have ever been in a Tokyo subway car at rush hour you might have redefined your idea of "close contact".)

One result of this is a complete absence of social stigma with wearing a face mask in public (as mentioned in the WHO extract). One can wonder if this behavior (face masks when one has a cold at work) will spread to other countries when the current situation abates.

Rich

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 7:20 AM Andrew Payne <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sara M. wrote:

Again, I believe this is a matter for our Board of Health to review and comment.

I believe our Board of Health should focus on issues local to and specific to Lincoln.  I do not believe it's a good use of limited resources to try and replicate communication, information, analysis, and data that's already available at the state, federal, and international level:




For example, the state issued specific guidance yesterday about pharmacies and grocery stores:  https://www.mass.gov/doc/march-25-2020-pharmacy-grocery-order  Unless there is Something Special about Donelan's, our Board of Health can simply implement the state guidance.  

Masks, grocery stores, social distancing, senior-only shopping hours -- they all work the same here in Lincoln as they do in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.  (well, in the ways that matter here, but I digress)

Perhaps the BoH/BoS could create a virtual task force

Lincoln-talk, like most social media platforms, is unfiltered, for better or worse.  We all have our own anxieties, fears, neuroses, egos, and reactions.  Everyone here recognizes that a world-class epidemiologist and some dude in his mom's basement (not that there's anything wrong with that) get the same billing.  And it's always been buyer-beware:  if you're getting your medical advice from LT, w/o any outside validation, I'm not quite sure what to say.

I'm grateful that we're not using extremely limited town resources and volunteers to try and "nanny" the discussions here.  It takes an enormous amount of time to research, validate and reply to various claims and assertions posted by residents.  But there's nothing to prevent a group of residents from organizing a qualified group to (say) write and maintain a "frequently asked questions" document.  If someone feels strongly, perhaps they could direct their energies to organizing such an effort.

I am far from an expert, but things are evolving so rapidly that we're sometimes all learning together, both experts and non-experts.  Let's consider masks.  From the CDC:

CDC does not recommend the routine use of respirators outside of workplace settings (in the community). Most often, spread of respiratory viruses from person-to-person happens among close contacts (within 6 feet). 


Given that respirators are a limited resource, it's a very sensible strategic recommendation:  if people are using a lot of respirators/masks in low-risk situations, then we don't have them for front-line health care workers in high-exposure situations.  But that's not the same as saying that masks don't work; it's saying:  save the best equipment for the people that need it the most.

Finally, as others have noted, "effectiveness" is a relative concept, not an absolute one.  A mask is like a seatbelt:  it doesn't guarantee you won't get hurt, but it improves your chances.  And like lap belts vs shoulder belts:  some provide better protection than others, and something may be better than nothing.  

Along these lines, experts are trying to figure out the role public mask use plays in countries (Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore) that are seeing a slower case ramp.  Data:  https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest   For example:  

WHO recommends against wearing masks in community settings because of lack of evidence. However, absence of evidence of effectiveness should not be equated to evidence of ineffectiveness, especially when facing a novel situation with limited alternative options. It has long been recommended that for respiratory infections like influenza, affected patients should wear masks to limit droplet spread. If everyone puts on a mask in public places, it would help to remove stigmatisation that has hitherto discouraged masking of symptomatic patients in many places. Furthermore, transmission from asymptomatic infected individuals has been documented for COVID-19, and viral load is particularly high at early disease stage.,  Masking, as a public health intervention, would probably intercept the transmission link and prevent these apparently healthy infectious sources.


One unmasked resident's view,

-andy
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Cloth masks

Sarah Schuller
In reply to this post by Kathryn Anagnostakis
Hi all! 
I’m sporting a cloth mask today over my medical mask because we are reusing our medical mask.  The cloth mask serves as a protector for the real mask and I can bring it home and wash it, so, I appreciate it!  

On Wednesday, March 25, 2020, Kathryn Anagnostakis <[hidden email]> wrote:
sent to me by a friend who’s a nurse at mass general in response to “everyone sewing cloth masks” and how not excited she is about being told they are “safe.”


Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

**excited for Dennis to comment ;)

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